The Simplification of the Series, when do you give up?

[Musicman247]

So what you really want TES VI to be is like Pokemon? Because that's what it sounds like.

In Pokemon you have skills and random number generators, and all you have to do to attack somebody is push a button and let the sheet decide what happens.

[dzio]

From what I can tell, it's supposed to mean that the result of your actions depend on what your character is like (strong/weak/stupid/cunning/observant) and not on what you, as a player can do. So the results of combat are calculated based on character stats, and not just on how acurately you point the cursor and if you click at the right moment. Correct me if I'm getting it wrong.

And if that's the meaning of "character-based mechanics", that I'll say that as far as combat goes they chose the right direction - in eliminating the "chance to hit" part and leaving the "damage dealt" part. It doesn't make sense for a character, however inept, to miss an enemy who's standing still one step from them. It makes perfect sense however to make it such a lousy hit, that it barely does any damage.

[udubdawgs]

So what you really want TES VI to be is like Pokemon? Because that's what it sounds like.

In Pokemon you have skills and random number generators, and all you have to do to attack somebody is push a button and let the sheet decide what happens.

absolutely, no! (wait, i've never played em, lol.) this is where innovation, creativity, ingenuity, development, advancement, etcetcetc, occur, lol. you know, novelty.

i do not want random generators, necessarily. and, definitely not throughout a game's mechanics. specific, appropriate and well-defined? sure. (i'd probably take a more thorough and developed "rule" than a random generator, in most instances.)

tbh, i want a game that combines 1st/3rd, character/player-based mechanics, FPS, RTS and sim-like characteristics. yes, i want it all, lol. but, i don't think that's too much. not in today's technology. imo, the only thing holding this back is, yep, money. but, dang, adding more text-based aspects (or, returning to your roots) saves money and i can think of many other aspects that are ALREADY IMPLEMENTED IN MANY OTHER GAMES that would reduce cost.

for example: the 2worlds developers have quite a few systems within their games that completely destroy bethesda. the same with obsidian. but, bethesda decided to go the, um, "fluff" route.

this is not about random generators. they have their nitch and when used appropriately help contribute towards a superior game. this is about depth, complexity, sophistication, a world responding to my character as i play the game, difficulty and creativity.

edit: dzio- yes, exactly. and, i agree. (btw, i've searched online for xtra "rules" to help my gaming and your very helpful comments came up a few times, lol.) this isn't about morrowinds combat: too frustrating, too... ugh. no game, i'd imagine, will ever try that again. but, that's not the point. morrowinds combat IS more realistic. it IS character-based and not dependent on a gamers skill with the controller/mouse. concept vs. execution.

double-edit: let me again point out a fact that i've stated before- EVERY aspect of skyrim's perks, skills and level-up system can be altered by the fundamental attributes. i know the reason they ditched unarmored and h2h and the attributes was a very cost-effective decision. they impact EVERY other aspect of the game. pick a perk and i'll change it based on those base attributes.

[dzio]

Not sure what you mean by "xtra rules", but I'm glad I helped.

For me the truth lies, as always, in the middle - I don't like completely stripped down point-and-click "player mechanics" (Skyrim magic system, I'm looking at you), but I find it more immersive when the game is also not completely focused on "character mechanics". The character whose actions depend much more on their stats than on what I do is hard for me to identify with. I keep thinking about them as "he" or "she", and in the game I want to play it should always be "I". Yes, it doesn't make much sense that a master swordsman would fail to block an easy hit or a champion archer would miss her target just because mu hand twitched at the wrong moment. On the other hand, when that happens, I don't feel that my character screwed up or was unlucky, I feel that I as a character did.

My point is this - more realistic doesn't always mean more playable and fun. And that's what I'm playing those games for in the first place.

[Br3admax]

I like stats, but the whole hit or miss is dumb. If they can't dodge, than they should get hit.

[udubdawgs]

i'm not talking about basic gameplay mechanics. but, here's an example that should take a sec for understanding: skyrims lockpick "skill." again, you will always see me going back to morrowind vs. innovation because i was, stupid enuf, to think there would be obvious ADVANCEMENT. money didn't USED to matter to my rationale, lol.

btw, again, i'm not talking about morrowinds faulty combat system.

ah, i think we're getting closer to the heart of it: immersion, realism, character vs me, game vs reality. i want the ability to do all of them, whenever. tes got the ball rolling with great speed. i don't find it, cumbersome, to allow on and off toggles to very meaningful gameplay toggles: eat/sleep, weather penalties, potion spamming inability, dead is dead, degradation vs. the freedom to do em all anytime i'd like.

i think the ez out is to say that consoles don't have the power to allow it. i say, the non-dying and non-consequence prince of persia game-types better not be bethsofts norm.

br3- this is NOT about morrowinds combat. THAT'S why i get so bewildered when i'm talking about morrowind v skyrim. btw, you do understand the CONCEPT that a hit means you didn't evade the attack, right? you are talking specifically and EXACTLY about player controller skill. have you read my position?

[Br3admax]

POOPLORD, see typing in caps doesn't make YOU sound SMART. And I'm not TALKING to YOU. Also YOU aren't making any SENSE. And if you want to do SOMETHING, just do IT. Game mechanics shouldn't have to tell you to.

[Musicman247]

Wait, you're using the lockpicking in Morrowind as an example of the way it should be? It's the exact same as combat; stand there and click until the random number generator gives you a favorable number. At least the Skyrim mini-game requires a little bit of real world skill. To me it's more immersive to have to move the lockpick and tension rod to pick the lock instead of this

[udubdawgs]

POOPLORD, see typing in caps doesn't make YOU sound SMART. And I'm not TALKING to YOU. Also YOU aren't making any SENSE. And if you want to do SOMETHING, just do IT. Game mechanics shouldn't have to tell you to.

lol. caps are meant to emphasize specific words and meanings. to help the less...become more.

game mechanics are in, gasp, every game. a good games mechanics are well-hidden. though, a good game also has them.

tell me EXACTLY, where my sense rubs thin.

[udubdawgs]

Wait, you're using the lockpicking in Morrowind as an example of the way it should be? It's the exact same as combat; stand there and click until the random number generator gives you a favorable number. At least the Skyrim mini-game requires a little bit of real world skill. To me it's more immersive to have to move the lockpick and tension rod to pick the lock instead of this

i'm saying the skyrim lockpick mechanic is beyond faulty. it has been relegated laughable, useless and void. skyrim actually made lockpicking, lol, useless. imagine a rpg with lockpicking as an useless skill. obvious exploitation is nothing to laugh about, either.

again, i'm talking innovation and creativity. is that frowned upon? think about the thief or witcher series and add morrowind. add in obsidian and fallout3. give me a half-life, 2 worlds and a decent lord of the rings combat system (though, it reeked.) and i'll develop a much greater game. at least, you know i'll care.

[dzio]

Skyrim lockpicking is ridiculous. I pretend the skill doesn't exist. Why wouldn't I when with a bit of luck I can open a Master lock at level 1 just as easily as I can at level 50?

And some of the things you mention don't really need to be implemented. Why would you need a dead-is-dead toggle? Just don't reload when you get killed. The same with abusing Alchemy - if you don't like the idea, just don't do it. Others though I completely agree with. Beth should know by now that they have a big and devoted community of roleplayers and a little nod in our direction would be nice, instead of aiming at the widest possible target demografic, by making everything easy and player-friendly.

About player-friendliness - there's one thing I really miss from the times before quest markers - more detailed quest descriptions. It was far from perfect in Morrowind (I spent hours on end looking for some quest locations or NPCs), but it was also much more immersive. I knew I had to head north and turn left behind a big hill, and then follow the river. I was in the world, reading the clues from it. And now? An NPC tells me to go and kill That Guy, without mentioning his location, and somehow I magically know where he is. I read a book about That Temple, and boom, there it is on my map, even though it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the text. I'm supposed to meet a person living in That Town, and suddenly an arrow is pointing straight at their door. That's lazy, boring and treating me like an idiot with some sort of attention deficit disorder. Give me the full instructions and let me look for any information I'm missing myself. I guess that's the price we pay for voice acting. They could just put those big blocks of text in front of us, and now no one wants to sit and stare at badly animated lips for ten minutes.

[Edit]: A note to any possibly offended folk with ADD out there - I don't mean that people with ADD are idiots, I mean that the game is treating me as if I was an idiot and had ADD.

[Musicman247]

I don't see it as faulty, since it works. It's harder to pick a lock at a lower level than it is at a higher level in that skill. What's faulty about that?

You keep saying there should be innovation and then name a bunch of games that have completely different playstyles and mechanics. What do you mean? You're not making much sense to me. I;m providing specific examples of things and you're making general repudiations that don't explain the reasons for your disapproval, other than it's "beyond faulty", "laughable" and "useless". Those are some big claims that require some sort of objective proof to be taken seriously.

@dzio: Why would anyone want to make a game that's hard to play? And I think you're exaggerating the number of "devoted reolplayers" as you call them.

[CBR JGWRR]

POOPLORD, see typing in caps doesn't make YOU sound SMART. And I'm not TALKING to YOU. Also YOU aren't making any SENSE. And if you want to do SOMETHING, just do IT. Game mechanics shouldn't have to tell you to.

And this is exactly what Skyrim got right. TES has always been about the character, and how they are, who they are, what they do, etc. An Orc mage is just as correct to do as an altmeri mage, or a bosmeri swordsman to a redguard swordsman, an Imperial C of C is just as correct as a dremora C of C, a dunmeri Nerevarine is just as correct as any other race, and an elven lady dovahkiin is just as correct as the definitive male nord dovahkiin, despite their complete opposites.

Arena and Daggerfall didn't even define a default race for the PC!


The difference is Skyrim is unlimited in what a character can be, completely. In fact, an orc mage in some respects is better than an altmeri mage in Skyrim right from the start, whereas it takes a fair bit of effort to manage the same in Arena to Oblivion. If you even get out of the starting dungeon with the orc mage in Arena, mages are hard at the best of times. Heck, even the easy route of the default warrior is rather difficult in Arena, my Altmeri female mage, then spellsword, now warrior Erissiare still hasn't escaped yet even after a few months of trying...

All through the series skills have changed, ways and means have changed, but one thing remains - it's always been about them. Well, not in Oblivion, it was always about Martin in Oblivion. My point still stands though.


Lockpicking - Anyone can pick a lock. The amount of picks or luck it takes will vary of course, but aside from it's legality there's nothing to stop any of us from breaking a real lock, no reason why TES should be different.

[udubdawgs]

POOPLORD, see typing in caps doesn't make YOU sound SMART. And I'm not TALKING to YOU. Also YOU aren't making any SENSE. And if you want to do SOMETHING, just do IT. Game mechanics shouldn't have to tell you to.

And this is exactly what Skyrim got right. TES has always been about the character, and how they are, who they are, what they do, etc. An Orc mage is just as correct to do as an altmeri mage, or a bosmeri swordsman to a redguard swordsman, an Imperial C of C is just as correct as a dremora C of C, a dunmeri Nerevarine is just as correct as any other race, and an elven lady dovahkiin is just as correct as the definitive male nord dovahkiin, despite their complete opposites.

Arena and Daggerfall didn't even define a default race for the PC!


The difference is Skyrim is unlimited in what a character can be, completely. In fact, an orc mage in some respects is better than an altmeri mage in Skyrim right from the start, whereas it takes a fair bit of effort to manage the same in Arena to Oblivion. If you even get out of the starting dungeon with the orc mage in Arena, mages are hard at the best of times. Heck, even the easy route of the default warrior is rather difficult in Arena, my Altmeri female mage, then spellsword, now warrior Erissiare still hasn't escaped yet even after a few months of trying...

All through the series skills have changed, ways and means have changed, but one thing remains - it's always been about them. Well, not in Oblivion, it was always about Martin in Oblivion. My point still stands though.


Lockpicking - Anyone can pick a lock. The amount of picks or luck it takes will vary of course, but aside from it's legality there's nothing to stop any of us from breaking a real lock, no reason why TES should be different.

yes, a mage with no skill in lockpicking can pick a lock. (physically. not magically, lol.)

next.

edit: a fighter with no magic skill can suddenly be an enchanting smith.

next.

talk about simplistic to my core. at least, make me do one quest, lol. howaboutz, a quest-line of changing admissions? are the writers at beth this idiotic?

[CBR JGWRR]

yes, a mage with no skill in lockpicking can pick a lock.

next.

edit: a fighter with no magic skill can suddenly be an enchanting smith.

next.

No problems with either. At all.

Think of it in real terms - pretend you are that mage. You can't cast an open spell on the lock anymore (THAT is far more worthy of complaining at, IMO, than the lost attributes. ) but if you fiddle with this lock correctly you may well be able to get it open. Same with becoming an enchanting smith.

[Br3admax]

The mage learns, in essence, something that does not happen in your world I take it.

[CBR JGWRR]

The mage learns, in essence, something that does not happen in your world I take it.

Oh I agree, it is bloody difficult. Still possible though.

[Br3admax]

Not talking to you...

[CBR JGWRR]

Krosis...

[udubdawgs]

yes, a mage with no skill in lockpicking can pick a lock.

next.

edit: a fighter with no magic skill can suddenly be an enchanting smith.

next.

No problems with either. At all.

Think of it in real terms - pretend you are that mage. You can't cast an open spell on the lock anymore (THAT is far more worthy of complaining at, IMO, than the lost attributes. ) but if you fiddle with this lock correctly you may well be able to get it open. Same with becoming an enchanting smith.

are you seriously advocating the acceptance of no attributes?

it's juvenile and a waste of my time to talk about skyrim when its mechanics are so jacked.
period.

[Br3admax]

Did you seriously even read the post?

[CBR JGWRR]

are you seriously advocating the acceptance of no attributes?

it's juvenile and a waste of my time to talk about skyrim when its mechanics are so jacked.
period.

Why not? There's no problem with it.


There is no problem with the mechanics - I'd say there is much more of a problem with saying this lock is just too much, and you are allowed absolutely no way to open it without other methods like open spells.

Same with combat or magic, although the latter peaked in Oblivion rather than Skyrim.

[Br3admax]

I think he thought you said skills shouldn't advance.

[CBR JGWRR]

I have no idea how that conclusion could be reached...

[Br3admax]

If he means the standard SPECIAL, then those were useless anyway except to raise Health, Magic, and Stamina. Even the developers said so. Jokes on you I guess.