Sexism: Far Cry 3 v. Skyrim

[Gaffer]

I've come up with another reason why Bethesda is leagues ahead of other game developers.

I've recently completed Far Cry 3, an open-world jungle shooter. The protagonist Jason Brody (you, male) explores the world, helping out the inhabitants in the villages (males and skimpy females) and those on the road (males) by taking out the baddies (males). Your overall aim is to rescue your friends (males and females in gender-assigned jobs) from bosses Vaas (male), Hoyt (male) and Citra (female, voluptuous, sex appeal role).

There's been discussion on the racism in Far Cry 3, centred around the white protagonist & friends playing the role of white knights, bettering the natives at the natives' own skills, and the absence of blacks/asians. But, as far as I know, none about the sexism. So you might think that game developers wouldn't care about gender roles given the lack of interest. Let's compare it with Skyrim:

The protagonist (female/male) explores the world, helping out the inhabitants (females and males) and those on the road (females and males) by taking out the baddies (females and males). Your overall aim is to slay Alduin (male) by taking out other dragons (undetermined) and draugr (females and males) on behalf of (female and male) jarls, Blades, throne claimants, priests (males) and Paarthurnax (male).

The most serious question for the creators of Far Cry 3 is: how could you make such a game in the 21st century?! The most serious question for Bethesda is: why didn't you give Alduin a female voice?!

NB: I'm playing Dragonborn now. I'm going to be so happy if Miraak's female!!

[dzio]

Beth games and Mass Effect are pretty much the only cRPGs where I really enjoy playing female characters. Almost everywhere else I run into those "oh, hello there, doll <leer>" moments or awkward game mechanics explaining "natural differences between men and women". I won't even start on chainmail bikinis and gravity-defying superhero boobs. I haven't played any games where they go the other way and make it look like they're trying too hard ("hey, did you see that?! we're not sexist, did you see?!" - happens all the time in movies/on tv), but I suppose they must be out there. TES way is the best way - it's a complete non-issue. No one comments on the fact that I'm an axe wielding lady, or that the blacksmith is a woman, or that a group of evil necromancers is led by a woman. It just doesn't matter and everyone sees it as something not even worth mentioning. That is how you show gender equality, friends.

And to anyone whose arguments in defense of stuff like "Zombie Bait Edition" of Dead Island: Riptide go along the lines of "it's just a game", or "games are for guys", or "this is what makes the big bucks" I have just one thing to say - you're a disgrace, go find yourself a brain.

[philfredobob]

i actually think this is strange. seeing as its set in those medieval times when lots of women were treated like crap, i would have expected a lot of gender friction (harf harf) in Tamriel, and found it a bit strange that there was so little.

but anyways, i have never really cared too much about this sort of things in games,films, any sort of media really, i dont notice it. if you want to look for sexism in games, go for it, im just happy playing the games.

[MARS]

My feminazi sense is tinglin'.

Now, let's try to be serious here. Far Cry 3 may well be sexist in some regards. However, that is a) not a problem and b) it goes both ways. Spoilers below.

Let's start with the alleged anti-female sexism: I don't really see it. Abuse of women isn't a theme in this game. The Rakyat are a native tribe, with their own traditions and values. They're not the Western world. Women don't play the same role in their society as they do in ours. That's not really a problem. I don't want to play in a game world that's so politically correct that it screams "LOOK AT US WE'RE MODERN THINKERS". That's boring. Even worse, it's annoying and cheap. I'll also mention that Citra is held in high reverence by the Rakyat. She's basically their queen. Looking good is part of being a leader, whether you like it or not. She wouldn't be half as revered if looking at her didn't give the Rakyat a hard-on. Guess what: that goes both ways. Ladyboners are a thing. Many women look at certain men in the same lusting way that men look at some women. One more thing: The "female, voluptous, sex appeal role" had sex with Jason basically against his will. She raped him, if you will. I can cherry-pick and switch things around too. This game hates men. To further explore that point, did you forget about Buck? Yeah, that one Australian dude. His name is Buck and he likes to [&@%!]. He likes to [&@%!] defenseless men. I don't know about you, but I think that's pretty sexist. It's also rape. Rape is bad. Poor Keith was raped by Buck several times, and is likely traumatized for life. Yet I don't see you lashing out and saying "HOW COULD YOU MAKE A GAME LIKE THIS IN THE 21ST CENTURY IT HATES MEN WAAAAAAH". Because men don't deserve to be treated equally, amirite? There's no such thing as misandry, male objectification, right? No woman ever said "I just care about the dick". Yes there is, yes there is, and yes they do.

Moving on to the alleged racism: I'm sorry, what? Dennis, the player's guide, savior and first ally is black. Jason isn't going around slapping 'MERICA stickers on the Rakyat. In fact, the Rakyat are the ones who want Jason with them. They don't want him because he's an American white boy, but because he's a natural warrior. The only reason Jason helped them at first because they would in turn help him save his friends. He didn't decide to stay with them until much later, after he realized that being a Rakyat (A non-caucasian, non-American tribe) was his natural calling. Basically he did the exact opposite of what you claim. As for the lack of black/asians: I mentioned Dennis and the pre-dominant non-Caucasian Rakyat and Pirates, right? Well, there you go. As for Asians...why do you need them in there? I'm sure no one would mind an Asian character if they existed, but there's no reason for one to be there other than boring, story-killing political correctness.

The most serious question for OP is: how could make such a thread in the 21st century?! The most serious question for OP also is: why didn't you make this thread last century, when it was relevant?!



And a little bonus:

Bethesda is leagues ahead of other game developers.

lol

No, they're not. Bethesda can't write its way out of a school notebook, uses a clunky and outdated engine (one that was recently "updated", mind you), and is even worse than BioWare in the "catering to every demographic possible" department. pre-Skyrim Bethesda was great. They still weren't the most competent company back then, but their games were extremely fun because of their gameplay. Oooh. Gameplay. There's a word we should keep in mind here:

Let's see here: Far Cry 3's gameplay is fluid, handles well, is fast-paced, and most of all it's neverending fun. Skyrim's gameplay is floaty, clunky, slow and only fun at certain parts. I played Far Cry 3 for 35 hours in total and enjoyed every single one. I've played Skyrim for 183 and wonder why the hell I spent so much time on it. Now, the gameplay in previous ES games wasn't any better. But it worked, because the game didn't take itself so seriously. There weren't any promos claiming that they "revolutionized the engine" or anything like that. Seems to me that Far Cry 3 is the better game here, and as such Far Cry 3's developers are better than Bethesda.

[dzio]

@philfredbob - but it's not happening in middle ages. It's happening in a pre-industrial era in a world where there are not just humans of different shapes and sizes but also elves of different sorts, cat-people and lizard-people. Not to mention other sentient beings, like the daedra or vampires. There's also magic, which levels the playing field by allowing a tiny girl fry a guy three times her size to pieces. It stands to reason that this kind of world would develop a very different kind of society and very different kind of prejudices.

And one of the reasons people tend not to notice something like this or dismiss it as unimportant is that for many people it's something that doesn't affect them personally. It crops up time and again in discussions about gender - men don't see the problem, about poverty - rich people don't see the problem, about access to education - people from well-educated families don't see the problem, about sexual orientation - straight people don't see the problem... Basically, in every unequal situation the privileged group will tend to insist that it's not an issue. Trust me, it's much harder to claim we live in an equal and fair world when you're not a white man from an upper middle class family, living in a big, Western city.

@Mars - I haven't played Far Cry, so I'm not going to comment on what you said about that game. But the rest of it? The "feminazi" comment, the "but ladies do horrible things to guys too!" argument, the "it's boring when there's no gender conflict" argument, the idea that the issue is no longer relevant in the 21st century? That's exactly the kind of reasoning I was talking about, when I was advicing some people to go and look for a brain. And possibly a bit of empathy and decency as well.

Why? To tackle just one - the misandry argument. Dismissing a hugely widespread problem by reminding everyone that in some rare cases the opposite happens is a terribly doushy thing to do. No one is claiming that it doesn't happen, or that it's not terrible, when it happens, or that something shouldn't be done about it. It's just that when the statistics say that something concerns 60% of group A and 3% of group B, you just don't tell group A to shut up (and possibly bring you a sandwitch), because the Bs have a tough time of it too. Unless you want to come off as a self-centered, entitled d-bag.

[philfredobob]

dzio, i live in the middle east, i know what gender inequality looks like.

[MARS]

My point was that:

a) there is no anti-female sexism in Far Cry 3. If anything the sexism goes against men.

b) there is no racism in Far Cry 3.

c) this sort of cherry-picking, feminist promoting stance that people take is appalling. Society is not out to get women. [&@%!] are. If a game were truly misogynistic, believe you me, there would have been a [&@%!] way bigger than this straw-grasp of a thread.


Now, I'm not denying that sexism is a thing. I'm arguing against people getting butthurt over the smallest sign of inequality. I'm all for gender equality, and I'm in no way misogynistic. I didn't dismiss any problems, I dismissed the presence of those problems in the game that we're talking about. Which we are, by the way. This is a thread about sexism in Far Cry 3 and Skyrim, not about sexism in general.

I also didn't say that the lack of gender-struggles in particular would make the game boring, but rather that the political correctness would. And I'm right. I'm sure you don't enjoy violence in real life. However, you do in video games, because it's not real. Likewise, racism, gender-struggles and all that other fun stuff isn't real in video games either. However, it serves to make plots more interesting. It feels great to play as a woman in Mount & Blade and overcome the extreme sexism you're met with.

In this day and age, in the western world hardcore feminism isn't a valid stance anymore. Men and women have equal rights in the eyes of the law. Personal opinions of people are an entirely different story, and shouldn't be tackled the way hardcore feminists do. Furthermore, I called OP a Feminazi because they completely ignored the misandry that goes on in Far Cry 3. So, I dunno what you're on about.

[Avron the S'wit]

I won't even start on chainmail bikinis and gravity-defying superhero boobs.

But you'll honestly get this everywhere, although I think it's insane. If you have Skyrim for the PC, get a tub of popcorn and look at the featured screenshots on Steam: pretty much every single one is a modded, scantily clad chick lying in some crazy position out in some field, miraculously not being torn about by a freaking sabre cat or a cave bear. Society says that scantily clad "sexy" chicks are in, and video games with blood and gore and shooting or whatever, regardless of who plays them, are still considered in the realm of dudes. And hey, that's fine with me, but only because I don't think violence and adventure has a gender and I'm going to play it regardless.

Sexism and female rights is a hot topic, and discussing it is only going to get people upset. But you definitely can't say that the Western world has chicks and dudes as completely equal. In terms of opportunity, yes, you are legally not allowed to deny a woman the same opportunities as a man, provided she can fulfill them. But people still constantly dictate what we can and cannot do with our bodies, how much we get paid (which is not always equal), and there's still biases about where women can be in industry. But it also goes both ways: there aren't a lot of male nurses or teachers, and those in the position are often thought of as "fags" or "perverts," which is kind of insane. There's a lot of unspoken and unconscious ideas that people, both male and female, conform to. You got to break those down.

I haven't played Far Cry 3, but I never feel the element of sexism in any TES game as it shipped. Once you start looking into mods, though...yeah, I totally get the feeling of sexism, particularly with female characters and definitely with male ones, too. I mean, I don't want some hot beefcake with long hair and tons of muscles tailing me around: I want a normal, believable guy, and a normal, believable gal. I usually avoid all cosmetic mods just because they make people look so ridiculously unbelievable. And whose fault is that?

The worst thing about sexism is that it goes both ways. Guys, for some reason, just seem to brush it aside or care much less about it when it's directed at them. Or so is the impression I get. How do guys feel about the beefcake or utter jerk characters video games make them into?

[dzio]

@philfredbob - That's why I wrote "one of the reasons". I didn't mean to imply that's your reason for not seeing it. That's just why it's so often dismissed - there's a lot of people who can't relate, or don't want to make an effort required to relate.

@Mars - see, when it touches you personally, it's not cherry-picking, or straw-grasping or ridiculous PC-insanity. It's not something you need to look for, it grates at you when you see it. That's why people get so worked up about something that seems like so much [&@%!] to you and that's why I probably overreacted a bit. Because you're using the same line of reasoning that I've heard from the "shut up and get back in the kitchen" dicks. I'm in no way saying you're one of them (and I'm sorry if it sounded like I did), but it tends to [&@%!] me off when I hear that.

And about your "in this day and age" idea - believing that "equal rights in the eyes of the law" means actual equal rights is staggeringly naive.

@Avron - you're probably right and we should quit it before someone gets too angry and says something we'll regret later.

[MARS]

The same way I feel about the female equivalent. It's completely ridiculous and distasteful, but if you're into that...well, what can I say? Good luck in real life. I certainly don't think it's sexist. You are going to gawk at someone you find physically attractive, and that's not sexist, nor is it necessarily objectifying.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Well to be fair, most games deem armor for females bikinis made of distance materials, all Skyrim adds is "boob guards", and while weird and maybe a little inappropriate the game is more than fair, as it's always been.

But i mean don't get upset over something like this, it's just a game, and honestly most people making these games aren't the most sociable people, I mean let's be honest, they probably don't get out much.

[Mattbott]

the way i played it, Citra is actually the true winner of FC3

Spoiler:

Mattbot as Jason Brody, aka sperm doner extraordinaire lol. Great storyline

[cybrxkhan]

I've heard the argument that because Skyrim has magic and dragons, then it could have a perfectly egalitarian society.

It doesn't make sense. TES is still based on a historical world, one where there were clear hierarchies and differentiations of power between different groups - look how the game has (regardless of whether you think it's handled well or not) racism, and even hints at class differences. We might as well add refrigerators and cars and democracy with Democrats and Republicans, because, hey, it's a fantasy world, anything can happen! No. This is not the case. Despite what people think of the genre, fantasy isn't where anything can happen. Fantasy worlds still have to follow internal rules of consistency if they want to be well-crafted fantasy worlds.

Skyrim did give enough leeway for female characters so it didn't feel like a stereotypical oppressive backwards medieval society, and frankly enough in my opinion - if it went too far, it would've felt like an extremely clumsy, forced imposition of the 21st century into a fantasy world. I don't want a clumsy, forced imposition of the 21st century into a fantasy world. I don't want stereotypical oppression of women just because either, of course, but I think Skyrim found a decent balance. You can find plenty of strong women in Skyrim, but I don't feel like it's 21st century values shoved down my throat and they fit the setting real well, as they feel very much a part of Skyrim's culture.

[philfredobob]

The worst thing about sexism is that it goes both ways. Guys, for some reason, just seem to brush it aside or care much less about it when it's directed at them. Or so is the impression I get. How do guys feel about the beefcake or utter jerk characters video games make them into?

i for one, dont care !
make them like that if they want, it doesnt offend me.

[Veck]

I haven't played Far Cry 3 so I can't comment on what you've said about that, but as for holding Skyrim up to be a beacon of female/ethnic minority enlightenment... no, just no. I can name a few cases of sexism and racism in the game right now, and while they're grasping at straws so slippery they might be made of butter that kind of dubiousness would probably fit in well with this thread's OP.

The quest in Riften where you have to slut-shame Haelga is the most obvious one. A single woman sleeps around a bit and gets the scandal targeted at her for it while the married men who did it with her get off scot-free. There's a theme of gender power struggles that props up a few times in the game with the men being the honest good guys that should be helped while the women are the devious tricksters that you should stop. Saadia is the most prominent one I can recall. Women are also often presented as naive, obsessive control freaks such as Astrid and Muiri in the Dark Brotherhood questline, traits that rarely make an appearance in men.

Talk about the "strong female presence" in the game all you want, it isn't necessary true. If you classify a pro-feminist game as one that just has the odd woman knocking around and allows you to play a girl who doesn't have to be sexualised then you need to shut up about the subject before you embarrass yourself any more. Female presence =/= feminism and sexualisation =/= objectification, at all. Look at all the female characters in the game and see how many try and emulate the machismo the male characters exhibit without showing any outwardly positive female traits of their own. When you get a woman that actually tries to act feminine and still be useful to everyone like Jarl Elisif they're portrayed as weak pawns of the men in charge trying to get above their station.

I'm not saying Far Cry 3 is somehow clean of the -isms and that they should be ignored or dismissed, as it likely isn't and its flaws should be noted and avoided in the future. But holding a game to be a shining example of modern thinking because it happens to be less racist and sexist than the game you're comparing it to is just a complete fallacy. Overall I'd say Skyrim is so chock-full of testosterone poisoning that considering it empowering to women is just plain ridiculous.

[Dohva.]

Overall I'd say Skyrim is so chock-full of testosterone poisoning that considering it empowering to women is just plain ridiculous.

Yes. Veck, I agree with all you've said, well put. The only thing I would add is that the Dovahkiin is perhaps the only female that has it better than all the rest, and even she is used as a pawn on many occasions. She only has dragon power at her disposal and if it weren't for that, she'd be just like anyone else. Delphine, while physically strong with a bad attitude, only has a withering old man at her side so of course she's going to be stronger in the eyes of others. Skyrim is a man's world and the examples of women who truly are empowered are few and far between.

The sexism in the game doesn't bother me as much as in other examples of literature (GOT, I'm looking at you) or video games. Probably because I'm used to it and that's quite sad, coming from a female perspective.

[p-sto]

Also agreeing with everything Veck said. Astrid in particular was a big disappointment for me because she started out very cunning but devolves into a mess.

Re: Sexism in the Song of Ice Fire series. Yes it's there and it's strong but my opinion is as the series progresses it's more honest about it's presentation of sexism compared to a lot of other things.

[Dohva.]

Sorry, p-sto I disagree with you there about ASOIAF. Women only had their sexuality to advance themselves and yes, it can be argued that's the way it was in medieval times but such concepts being accepted by a modern audience is irritating. Women weren't given enough credit. But that's off topic so I'll stop now.

[dzio]

@Veck - Wow, and suddenly I have to stop myself from using arguments that sound suspiciously close to what Mars was saying before that [&@%!] me off so much...

For me a game is empowering to women when I can play a female character who is treated the same way a male character would be, I can make the same kind of choices and while I can choose to do things traditionally perceived as feminine or masculine, I'm in no way forced to do them. Call me unenlightened if you want.

And the same has to apply to majority of NPCs. And the key word here is "majority", which is why I think it does in Skyrim. The Haelga quest is horrible not because it exists at all, but because slut-shaming is the only option the player can choose, other than not doing it at all. If there was an option of telling the nosy Riften prudes to mind their own business, I'd see nothing wrong with that. It would just mean that there are some horrible people living in Riften and trying to hurt Haelga for no reason. The same goes with Saadia or Muiri - neither of them is a typical Skyrim female character, not to mention the fact that Saadia's situation is not so obvious and you can choose to believe her version of the story and take her side.

TES games are not an example of modern thinking, nor should they be. Good storytelling doesn't take our reality (or an idealised version of what we'd like it to be) and dress it up in a paper-thin costume. Good storytelling creates its own rules. The creators of TES games thought up the world in which existence of many races and magic created another sort of mentality, in which gender is usually not perceived as something that limits people's life choices. The key word here being "usually". The examples you've brought up are exceptions to the rule and the rule is: you can be whatever you want, whether you have boobs or not, and your choice will be accepted.

For me that's a positive message. Tamriel is not perfect as far as the portrayal of gender goes, but it's helluva lot better than what we've come to expect from video games and in many aspects from the real world too. It's probably not a "pro-feminist" game, but on the other hand I don't think that's something a game should be. It's a game. It's a story. It's not ham-handed propaganda, and that's what I think a game would have to be, for it to meet your standard of "pro-feminism".

But maybe I'm wrong. Tell me what your ideal pro-feminist cRPG would be like and we can see how that compares to Skyrim.

[philfredobob]

But maybe I'm wrong. Tell me what your ideal pro-feminist cRPG would be like and we can see how that compares to Skyrim.

like i said, i wouldnt make it Pro-Feminist if it was set in a world like Skyrims. i would make a few of the usual issues present, as i really dont think it makes sense in its current state.

i dont even think games should revolve about empowering men or women, its irrelevant, and this kind of politically correct crap gets on my nerves. sometimes, no wait, almost all the time, a story is better if its ''politically incorrect'' (if thats even a word, but you get my meaning).


EDIT: fixed a huge mistake in writing, effin stupid internet...

[p-sto]

Yes and no, Phil. I have no problem with games or other media depicting a fair degree of social injustice. But when you get situations like the aforementioned shaming of Haelga, where you do something horrible and they paint it as righteous, that's a bit of a turn off.

[philfredobob]

if you dont like it , dont do it?

the only person who said it was good was the person who told you shame her in the first place, if you dont agree with it, leave it.

[p-sto]

I'm fine with not doing it but I was more just using it as an example. I'm of the opinion that ugly things should be presented as ugly. When they're presented as beautiful or as trivial I get offended and this is far from the only example of Skyrim doing such things.

[philfredobob]

like i said, the only person who said it was a good thing was Svana. no one else in Riften mentions it, so we cant know whether or not they agree with what she did. it was presented how it was presented, and the opinion of whether or not it was ''ugly'' was left up to the player.

[Dohva.]

No, the Dunmer also mentions that Haelga should get what she deserves. The 3 men she was involved with all dissed her and made it seem like their affairs were 100% on her. It takes two to tango, so that right there was disappointing. Especially the "oh, she must have slipped something in my drink". Haelga's quest seemed shady even with my shadiest character.