Hermaeus Mora and You

[Medomé]

Includes Dragonborn end-of-main-quest spoilers and speculation.

Spoiler:

I was talking to a friend about the implications of the Dragonborn questline's end, where Hermaeus Mora makes an example of Miraak in front of the PC and declares the latter his new Dragonborn servant. The discussion was about the player's choice in the matter - he wanted to ignore the Daedra, despite the lack of an "I'll never join you, vile demon!" option this time - but I thought about it later and came up with a couple of questions.

1) If the Dovahkiin were to embrace Mora, what would being his champion and servant entail? In his Skyrim quest, Septimus Signus mentions "a few murders, some dissent spread, a plague or two" in return for some secrets, but all we know about Miraak is how he was rewarded and how he used those rewards. Unless rebelling against the dragons was working Mora's will?

2) On a similar note, why did Mora keep Miraak around for so long? I know he got trapped in Apocrypha after Mora snatched him out of the dragons' clutches, but surely the Demon of Knowledge has the means to return a trapped mortal* to Mundus without requiring something like the soul of another Dragonborn?

*IS Miraak mortal? He's lived for thousands of years, so either one doesn't age in Apocrypha or he's undead like the other Dragon Priests.

[BetaB17]

Well I guess I'll start with the later>_> but most of this I guess is just opinion mixed with theories or fact.
~Miraak is very much mortal, but in any other situation he would be dead. Mora placed him in a stasis within oblivion, preventing him from aging and thus a mock version of immortality. Mora is after all a daedric prince however try as he might, Miraak could never truely be his.. seeing as his soul has already been claimed.
~Now for the first, Septimus most likely had to gain his favor or attention, prove that he can be a tool>_> though Sheogorath surely would of liked him better.. Anyways Daedra enjoy taking prizes, treasures that they can horde from others. A dragonborn is very much an ultimate prize, because after all what is a value of a dragon's soul? Even more so when in the hands of a mortal! All the princes want to crack a shot for this prize, but Miraak was different. He was tempted by knowledge>_> something that would give him power. Mora wanted more than a slave, he wanted a champion. Even if revolting against the dragons wasn't in his favor, Mora still would have his prize.. Sadly at death a Dovah's soul is returned to their creator>_> so not even that prize can last "forever"

[swordsister]

Daedra owns your arse as always. End of story. Don't you just looove Beth.

[CBR JGWRR]

Unfortunately, Yeah That.

Beth have decided that the most powerful mortal since Talos or the Tribunal is left as a slave to some tentacled monster...


At least the C of C got the honour of becoming a Prince rather than being enslaved by one.

[Mattbott]

Mora is also the god of fate so he probably uses his knowledge to nudge mortals into his plans but i am not sure how being a champion as a mortal hero, translates into being a slave or servant once dead..

i don't doubt the ability of any Daedric prince to really give you a baaaad day, but tbh i think most of them are a load of meddling blowhards

Spoiler:

i know werewolves all go to hircine so a good nord will get the cure if he wants ot get to sovngard, but i managed to play the thieves guild story without the game telling me explicitly my sould belonged to anyone (i never made the pact with nocturnal, i was never told what would happen after death. But anyway, the deal with her only lasts until you have paid her in full, so no big deal to your immortal soul).
I think what really makes me dubios about daedic lords is that one of my heroes has completed most of the game. So according to them, he is champion of a half a dozen daedra - of often conflicting ethos', two or three of them apparently own his soul and he's also annoyed the crap out of at least two by saying no to them. So the immortal soul is as much a commodity to Daedra in TES as a persons working hours are to employers in RL - which for me dispels a lot of the portentious doom surrounding a so called Deal with the Devil

choice is the key here, you choose to serve a daedra (because you feel an affinity perhaps) in order to commit to the relationship; you might well be tricked down a path (eg nocturnal or hircine) - but without that consent, there's no relationship beyond an angry daedra being able to squash you like an ant at will. Persuasive maybe, but not ownership

[cybrxkhan]

I figured it'd just be a convenient way to keep the Dragonborn out of the events of the next TES game.

[Marelo]

Mora can bellow all he likes about the player being his champion; doesn't make it true.

[BunBun299]

I know my Dragonborn is never giving old ball of tenticals the time of day again. She'll be heading for Sovengarde when the time comes, no matter what any of the Daedra think.

[Mattbott]

Mora can bellow all he likes about the player being his champion; doesn't make it true.

exactly.. being champion doesn't mean you belong after death

my guy is probably going to get fired as champion by a load of daedra cos he has their artifacts in weapons racks and on manequins (in fact i don't think i use any of them at all)

[CBR JGWRR]

but i managed to play the thieves guild story without the game telling me explicitly my sould belonged to anyone (i never made the pact with nocturnal, i was never told what would happen after death. But anyway, the deal with her only lasts until you have paid her in full, so no big deal to your immortal soul).

After you pay her, by protecting the Sepulcher in life and death, she takes you into the shadows of the Evergloam - It's the whole point, One with the Shadows. You strictly don't exist anymore, except as a part of a guiding, protecting force for other thieves.

And it isn't possible to do the Thieves' Guild without making the pact.

[Mattbott]

i'll have to re play that part, at the time i thought i'd managed to avoid lying to her and promising my soul even though as a werewolf it was Hircine's

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Daedra owns your arse as always. End of story. Don't you just looove Beth.

It's not an open and shut case at all. In both Shivering Isles and Dragonborn it's implied you still have a choice. Even Sheogorath's "proof" of being the cOc really only shows he was present for those events - not that he himself was the Champion. He could have been a companion of the Champion - he could be the Adoring Fan for all we know. Wouldn't THAT be amusing?

[ZackyZombify]

Actually it's been confirmed that he's the CoC.

[Marelo]

Where?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Actually it's been confirmed that he's the CoC.

According to Wes Johnson, and that was an educated guess based on the dialogue he recorded. He's a very smart and fine fellow but that's not an official statement from him.

Yes, SOMEONE mantled Sheogorath and banished Jyggalag. Just like SOMEONE did all the guild quests and side quests. History does not demand that be the exact same person who helped Martin vanquish the Daedra, though. In fact, that's highly unlikely outside of gameplay.

[Br3admax]

You're going to have to explain that last one to me. Mehrune's Dagon =/= all Daedra. Just because you hate one, doesn't mean you have to hate them all.

As a general rule, I like to assume that all DLCMQs are accomplished by the PC. Little of it would make sense otherwise. SI's is debatable, but all the others, not so much.

[ZackyZombify]

Where?

http://uesp.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=26950

There's an ancient topic about it if you feel like reading.

[CBR JGWRR]

You're going to have to explain that last one to me. Mehrune's Dagon =/= all Daedra. Just because you hate one, doesn't mean you have to hate them all.

Daedra is also the generic, collective name for the hordes of atronachs, scamps and dremora the C of C would have had to carve his way through...

[Marelo]

http://uesp.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=26950

There's an ancient topic about it if you feel like reading.

Oh, I thought you meant beyond the Skyrim quest dialogue.

Personally, I believe the CoC is Sheogorath, and it's definitely hinted to be true, but it's far from confirmed.

[swordsister]

Daedra owns your arse as always. End of story. Don't you just looove Beth.

Ahem. This.

Really, debate as long as you'd like. This is the way Beth clears heroes out of their lore. All the DLC endings are canon, all MQ endings are canon. Mostly, all the SQ endings are canon. You are everything and everyone.

There. Is. No. Roleplaying. There. Are. No. Choices.

got that? good.

Edit: The only exception to this could have been the Civil war questline but they completely scr*wed that up, cause there's and online BS is on it's way and there's no need to divide the market profit between a DLC and a MMO(not anR)PG.

I'm done with Beth.

[This Is My Name]

I'm done with Beth.

I'm sure they're heartbroken.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I'm done with Beth.

I'm sure they're heartbroken.

Pilaf "likes" this post.

[Br3admax]

You're going to have to explain that last one to me. Mehrune's Dagon =/= all Daedra. Just because you hate one, doesn't mean you have to hate them all.

Daedra is also the generic, collective name for the hordes of atronachs, scamps and dremora the C of C would have had to carve his way through...

In that case, it's time to give up on existence in general. Because of all those bandits, necromancers, and rogues.

@swordsister: But you made that canon. It's amazing how you can purchase a product, do everything in it, and then say "I [&@%!] hate Bethesda. Can you believe they had the audacity to make something they made into their story?" It would rather stupid for them not to. You made the conclusion that we did it, you. I've never heard Bethesda confirm any of our suspicions.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Ha! Yeah... "I bought this game and spent 30 bucks on two DLC, and spent over 1000 hours playing it. Worst game ever!"

[swordsister]

Betting my money on some developer mass and getting asskicked in return, would not mean that i'll do the same mistake again. Save your sarcasm, i'm not the only heartbroken fella out there, and you all know know that.

I recommend you folks look around a little. Nexus forums would be a good start.