The Simplification of the Series, when do you give up?

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Just because people didnt get everything out of their game is no argument against the people that did.

Ironic.

Not really.

[Musicman247]

The magic in magic is manipulating it, not google eyeing over pretty graphics with no substance.

The magic in magic is using it strategically, outwitting your opponent. Being able to lay down a wall of fire around an opponent and then a rune that he steps on once through the wall is more magical than throwing different colored orbs at people. The system in Skyrim adds substance in regards to tactics.

[udubdawgs]

Just because people didnt get everything out of their game is no argument against the people that did.

Ironic.

let me answer your unwritten comment: yes, i got out of skyrim all that i possibly could. and then some, due to, my personal, strict, hardcore roleplaying rules and DiD playstyle.

however, i didn't get out of skyrim what wasn't there.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

The magic in magic is manipulating it, not google eyeing over pretty graphics with no substance.

The magic in magic is using it strategically, outwitting your opponent. Being able to lay down a wall of fire around an opponent and then a rune that he steps on once through the wall is more magical than throwing different colored orbs at people. The system in Skyrim adds substance in regards to tactics.

And the previous games all had more tactics, since they all had more options. All Sky did was make it prettier. Like I said, the magic in magic is manipulating it - which in turn offers more tactics.

[POMC S117]

This train derailed. Violently.

[Musicman247]

Ok, let's all just answer the OP's question and leave this thread. We're getting very very off topic.

[ZackyZombify]

I won't give up on ES. It fits me perfectly. I didn't give up on Fable, so if I can survive that I think I can handle anything ES has to conjure.

[logansrun]

back on topic then. "The Simplification of the Series, when do you give up?" I gave up roughly the same time the series did.

[KryptonianBlood]

back on topic then. "The Simplification of the Series, when do you give up?" I gave up roughly the same time the series did.

Would that be skyrim or oblivion? I personally thought that oblivion still tried, unlike its younger sister who was blessed with looks and thus never felt that she needed to develop her character.

I've posted my when I give ups a few times but here's one more.

If there comes an ES game where males and females, all start with the same stats, I'm done/

Or if all races start with the same stats and simply different powers.

Or they all start with the same powers/spells.

[DwemerInSpace]

If there comes an ES game where males and females, all start with the same stats, I'm done

Erm, isn't this the case in Oblivion and Skyrim? Further, what's wrong with gender equality? I prefer gender to be an aesthetic roleplaying element, maybe with a few missions gender-specific (unless it's romance, darn it, then I demand my character and other NPCs be allowed to be bisexual.)

[Witchery]

If there comes an ES game where males and females, all start with the same stats, I'm done

Erm, isn't this the case in Oblivion and Skyrim? Further, what's wrong with gender equality? I prefer gender to be an aesthetic roleplaying element, maybe with a few missions gender-specific (unless it's romance, darn it, then I demand my character and other NPCs be allowed to be bisexual.)

Oblivion races & skills

And the only thing I know about in Skyrim that's different is some heights and weights/speeds. Other than that, nothing really. . .

It isn't really a gender equality issue at all. Men of all races tend to be physically stronger, and females often times are better with the personality attribute and in some races females are far superior at magic or intelligence or willpower. (ie Argonians) I prefer for the races and genders to have some diversity when it comes to skills, and Skyrim definitely doesn't capitalize on that as it could, but I digress. We're a bit off topic.

[KryptonianBlood]

No, in Skyrim there are no attributes to be different but different races do still start with different points in different skills. sex already has ALMOST no impact.

[logansrun]

back on topic then. "The Simplification of the Series, when do you give up?" I gave up roughly the same time the series did.

Would that be skyrim or oblivion? I personally thought that oblivion still tried, unlike its younger sister who was blessed with looks and thus never felt that she needed to develop her character.

oh, I think it was avron that actually hit the nail on the head.

Subject: Oblivion underrated within the TES community?

Say what you want, but I think that the ability to appeal like to a broad market like that is key (having been in marketing, myself). Sure, newer titles aren't going to have the hardcore fantasy RPG element that Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind had, but that unique feeling of what The Elder Scrolls is all about is, for me at least, still there.

obviously being the consumate marketeer and salesperson, it was phrased ever so delicately and politely so as not to offend anyone's sensibilities, but the fact was right there. what avron completely missed or simply failed to recognize was the obvious. that to many of us "the hardcore fantasy RPG element that Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind had" WAS the heart and soul of the ES series.

here are the proofs from other threads.

Subject: On the Casualization of the TES series

about the only possible exception is in the eye candy, graphics and multimedia dept. where the newer titles have the advantage of newer technology, which doesn't seem like a fair trade to me considering MGSO and other graphics mods actually do manage to "modernize" morrowind quite nicely from what I understand and have seen posted, and that is really where the argument for mods should come into play. in regards to keeping the older games contemporary to the newer titles. not the reverse of replacing absent content or missing game mechanics to the newer games that was present in the older titles. that's the tail wagging the dog and putting the cart before the horse. bass ackwards.

the fact that mods are needed for newer games to actually replace missing content from older games rather than to modernize the older games to keep them current and "fresh". completely backwards "logic" and reasoning.

Subject: On the Casualization of the TES series

"I don't care what you compare. armor, weapons, skills, spells, alchemy, enchanting, factions, quests, locations, travel options, etc. you name it and morrowind has all later titles beat hands down in a side by side comparrison."

when these can be reasonably addressed and argued, I might be willing to concede my position, but the fact remains that on any one of these the developer took options off the table.

travel, "well, we don't really need all these, so we'll just take all these and replace them with this" ... *drops horse in front of PC.* ... "there ya go. one-size-fits-all 'fast travel'." completely missing the point that when it comes to RPGing there is no such thing as "one-size-fits-all". it boils down to greed and laziness on the part of the developer under the pretense of "streamlining" for the "casual gamer".

"one-size-fits-all" approach moving in the direction of "generic hack-and-slash RPG".

Subject: On the Casualization of the TES series

the fact that anyone is even attempting to debate the obvious facts presented and put forth in regards to the detrimental effect of a lazy generic "one-size-fits-all" hack-and-slash approach has had on the complexity and creativity traditionally offered to the RPG fans that made them RPG fans in the first place is absurd. RPGs were a niche market to intellectuals that is selling out their traditional fan base for greed and profit. it is no longer a niche market or refuge for intellectuals who enjoy challenging intellectual stimulation, but a generic cookie-cutter mill project for profit.

it's like indy going mainstream and no longer being indy. what's the point?

indy: hardcore RPG
mainstream: generic hack-and-slash RPG

and that's only the tip of the iceberg. let's take a peek "under the hood" so to speak and address some of the negative impacts on the series that so far have only been glossed over and briefly touched on.

first, oblivion broke the lore of the elder scrolls. according to oblivion, the nerevarine prophesies were never fulfilled. according to the nerevarine prphesy the incarnate nerevarine would not only unite all the clans, tribes, great houses anmd factions but rid the land of it's occupation and restore the former glory of it's people.

what happened in oblivion instead? the nerevarine leaves morrowind and red mountain erupts. funny, that little detail seemed to be vaguely absent from the previous prophesy. instead the land is decimated so if the nerevarine prophesies were never fulfilled, they weren't really "prophesies" now were they?

second, I already touched on this previously as well, but the fact that I took the same strategies I developed in morrowind for defeating and overcoming much tougher opponents and after adapting them to oblivion, rendered oblivion with it's constant leveling a non-issue.

not only did it make it a non-issue, but I successfully leveled a character maxing out his magic skills prior to leaving Weynon Priory and proceeded to undertake joining the Mage's Guild doing all the required Recommendation quests with nothing but starting level spells against high level bandits (and Warlord) fully outfitted with Daedric gear.

so here's the recap and summary.

1. broken lore starting with oblivion
2. strategies and tactics developed from a previous game should have proved ineffective and insufficient during the next installment. expectation would have been a need and requirement to develop new strategies and tactics rather than recycle older ones that should have been outdated.
3. mods are likewise working in reverse order from expectations being developed for the newer games to replace missing older content while the older games are still being successfully "modded" for a modernized look and feel and keeping them current.
4. replacing varied content with a "one-size-fits-all" approach
5. going from hardcore RPG to generic hack-and-slash RPG with this one-size-fits-all "streamlining" approach which alienates the hardcore "indy" fanbase in favor of appealing to the "mainstream" generic hack-and-slash one.

so basically the end result is that any hardcore RPG player that does retain any tendencies to utilize strategy or tactics in their playstyle will find the newer games wholly unchallenging and unsatisfying.

[Archer]

Really? Is it absolutely required that you have to bash every game made after morrowind? Each game is a different game, if nothing changed then you would be complaining that the games never changed. They all have their own upsides and downs. I, personally, believe that skyrim is the best game yet, and I'll stick with the series until the end.

[Slither]

For me it would take A LOT of simplifying in many different areas to make me completely stop buying the games. I guess if it had a lazy/Boring story with bad half@&! lore and while I already think the magic has been striped of a lot of intrigue it could be worse, as could the combat but at least its not insultingly easy.

[House of the Wolf]

For me, "simplification" is a loaded term. So, @OP, I don't think I'd really ever give up. They could kill-off all the Nords, and I'd still absolutely love the series.

[philfredobob]

i will probably give up on the series if the next game features a story as horrendous as Skyrims. if thats the way they are going to write these games, im out.

[Abishpulu Shand]

I liked the general plot of Skyrim, but I certainly felt that the story could have been greatly improved by being more twisty and a lot longer.

I miss the skill requirement for promotion that was present in Morrowind. It makes a bit more sense than 'Oh, you went and got my sandwiches? Excellent! You can be archmage!'. I'm not against trying out new systems but I think Skyrim's skill system is not as good as what came before. It suits the Wasteland better than it does Tamriel.

One thing I will say is that my game-playing experience is rather more enjoyable as far as combat goes. Running at things and poking them until they fall down was Morrowind's greatest weakness.

[Isabel of Alinor]

Simplification. I love simplification because i love simple things in part because im a simple person. If the series further demonizes elves (all elves) in anyway then im done with the series its as simple as that.

[swordsister]

I wish i wasn't this late to join the discussion here. Especially the very first two pages there.

You people seemingly have just attacked the OP post blindly and , yet, about that "why are you even here if you don't like the game thing".

People. Please. Who thaught you this? "you don't like something, you don't speak of it" What nonsense is that?

this is exactly what's wrong with these forums. You over value your thoughts which are,in the end, just exact carbon-copy of one another. People here on these forums share mostly the exact opinions. This is no base for a healty discussion.

I'm not pointing fingers nor trying to offend people but that's my opinion.

[Musicman247]

So when would you give up on the ES series? That's the question in the OP.

[swordsister]

So when would you give up on the ES series? That's the question in the OP.

I think it'll happen when they decide to follow Blizzards footprints.

Consider all the Warcraft series, MMORPG attemt and the destuction of the lore. Warcraft never had some deep lore if you ask me but, eh, i guess you get my meaning. Siplication of a game is majorly done in order to favor hapless kids with no sense of choice and empathy. I don't want to start another console-PC war but please, read the underlines.

They appear to be heading down this way, unfortunately.

[Musicman247]

The MMORPG is being made by another studio while Bethesda works on Fallout and ES.

I said earlier I wouldn't give up, but I think I would keep buying ES games until it became a Kinect only game or some kind of party game. And even then I may rent it to see if there's anything to it.

[philfredobob]

I wish i wasn't this late to join the discussion here. Especially the very first two pages there.

You people seemingly have just attacked the OP post blindly and , yet, about that "why are you even here if you don't like the game thing".

People. Please. Who thaught you this? "you don't like something, you don't speak of it" What nonsense is that?

this is exactly what's wrong with these forums. You over value your thoughts which are,in the end, just exact carbon-copy of one another. People here on these forums share mostly the exact opinions. This is no base for a healty discussion.

I'm not pointing fingers nor trying to offend people but that's my opinion.

Hahaha, if i agreed with this would i be a Hypocrite ?

[Zephyr]

To the OP question, I won't give up. To know when I would requires enough speculation (and negativity) to make it pointless. I'll continue to enjoy Skyrim, and if I like TESVI enough on its own merit, I'll buy it.