The Simplification of the Series, when do you give up?

[Avron the S'wit]

If you can find it, that'd be great. I was around during the pre-release and didn't hear that, so I'd be curious to see proper attribution, otherwise it doesn't hold water in my books.

[POMC S117]

"Spell Creation was Spreadsheety"

-Todd Howard

TBF, is there any way of doing it without using a spreadsheet...

Whats wrong with using a spread sheet? In final fantasy games I keep pen and paper close in 13 to keep track of certain things.
and besides, if you need a spread sheet or pen and paper for spell-making, well, maybe you would find the fable series more enjoyable, because spell-making something very powerful is quite easy. You simply had many choices, the trick is, pick what YOU like (customization).

Because Bethesda have to cater to the larger, more profitable casual gamers who can't or won't spend time with pen and paper and jotting things down.

To be honest, I was quite [&@%!] at the lack of spell crafting. I found it pretty neat and I was looking forward to it being in Skyrim.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

If you can find it, that'd be great. I was around during the pre-release and didn't hear that, so I'd be curious to see proper attribution, otherwise it doesn't hold water in my books.

http://nerdtrek.com/skyrim-details/

Like I said, Todd's own words.

And there's actually two times he said it. Once was just a small quip that I quoted and another was part of a larger QA. I'm sure the birth sign comment is in there as well, though that could have been Pete that made that one (I also remember reading that one on IGN or Gamespot).

[CBR JGWRR]

Or, more precisely, this:

“Yeah, spellcrafting is a real wildcard. Something that we’ve done a lot. And there are pluses and minuses to it. We’d like to find… we have some ideas that we really like on how to solve that, and I don’t know where that’s going to go. But the thing that we DON’T like about the previous systems that we’ve done, is it becomes very “spread-sheety.” It takes the magic out of magic. You got to see the game, but your listeners haven’t. There’s a bigger emphasis on how the magic physically acts. Just a spell like fire; there are different spells for how the fire moves. Like putting down a rune that explodes when you walk over it. Or fire you can spray that lingers on the ground, like you’re spraying a wall, and you can spray the ceiling. Or fire that travels like a flamethrower out of your hands. Or a fireball that you charge up and throw and it explodes at a distance. So our main goal is to make magic feel like this arcane powerful thing. And once it goes into a spreadsheet in the game where you can just say I want something at this distance and this power, it removes the illusion of like how this stuff actually works. So we have some ideas of ways around that, but we don’t know where those are going to go yet. We do have the benefit of, we’re really, really happy with how the magic plays in the game, both visually and mechanically. And then being able to do it with both hands. There are opportunities there for combinations and things you can do without getting into the spreadsheet aspect of it. Which I do know some people like, but it does take away from the impact of the spells that you’re finding and mechanically how they work.”

[Avron the S'wit]

Thank you kindly. Cite your sources, people, it's good.

But anyway, this is what Howard says:

Yeah, spellcrafting is a real wildcard. Something that we’ve done a lot. And there are pluses and minuses to it. We’d like to find… we have some ideas that we really like on how to solve that, and I don’t know where that’s going to go. But the thing that we DON’T like about the previous systems that we’ve done, is it becomes very “spread-sheety.” It takes the magic out of magic. You got to see the game, but your listeners haven’t. There’s a bigger emphasis on how the magic physically acts. Just a spell like fire; there are different spells for how the fire moves. Like putting down a rune that explodes when you walk over it. Or fire you can spray that lingers on the ground, like you’re spraying a wall, and you can spray the ceiling. Or fire that travels like a flamethrower out of your hands. Or a fireball that you charge up and throw and it explodes at a distance. So our main goal is to make magic feel like this arcane powerful thing. And once it goes into a spreadsheet in the game where you can just say I want something at this distance and this power, it removes the illusion of like how this stuff actually works.

Looks like he just wants magic to be a more intriguing thing than "plug it in and go." I actually like the effects of magic in Skyrim, so I think he served his purpose. It would have been neat to create your own spells, but I think he was trying to look at things through a different angle, and don't really see the harm. It doesn't sound like he's saying, "Let's take things and ruin them," it looks like he's trying to say, "Let's look at these from a different point of view."

I personally get a lot more giggles from my mage casting destructive fireballs that explode and throw back things all around than picking and choosing spells to create like I did in Oblivion. I do wish enchanting was a little more intriguing in Skyrim, however.

You know what would be great? If NPCs didn't talk over one another just because one passed by you. I'd like that any day.

Edit: ninja'd by CBR.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Too bad he ruined magic in Skyrim.

[Avron the S'wit]

Your opinion, dear, hardly a fact. To each their own.

I freakin' love magic in Skyrim.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Your opinion, dear, hardly a fact. To each their own.

I freakin' love magic in Skyrim.

Less of everything, just better graphics. That's objectively less, not an opinion. Putting the magic back in magic is not taking away nearly all customization and gimping it in every way but graphically. It's style over substance.

Though my comment was about the PR not the end result.

[Br3admax]

For you maybe Xarnac. For me, it seemed fine. The fact of the matter is, you are not the only customer Bethesda has to make games for. It would be nice if they could cater to everyone, but you have to go after the largest crowd. You don't like it, fine. Saying that because you can't make enemies totally splode in a game ruins something, is really trivial.

[Avron the S'wit]

Xarnac, for it to be a fact, everyone has to agree with you. But I digress. You're entitled to your opinions, as are we all.

A small sidenote? I actually dislike the simplification of horses. I much enjoyed the variations of all the steeds in Oblivion: Skyrim's horses were all the same, just with different coats of paint.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

For you maybe Xarnac. For me, it seemed fine. The fact of the matter is, you are not the only customer Bethesda has to make games for. It would be nice if they could cater to everyone, but you have to go after the largest crowd. You don't like, fine. Saying that because you can't make enemies totally splode in a game ruins something, is really trivial.

Just people that accept less and didnt get everything out of their game in the first place. The thousands of users and fans and threads and even spell creation petitions show it's a lot of people that feel the same as me. In the end, less is Less.

Xarnac, for it to be a fact, everyone has to agree with you. But I digress. You're entitled to your opinions, as are we all.

A small sidenote? I actually dislike the simplification of horses. I much enjoyed the variations of all the steeds in Oblivion: Skyrim's horses were all the same, just with different coats of paint.

Math isn't an opinion.

[Avron the S'wit]

Anyway, let's all agree to disagree and get back to the matter at hand.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

On topic, the real answer is you don't give up. You keep being critical and calling out the problems and not accepting the bare minimum. Even if it is in vain.

[Avron the S'wit]

All right, then how would you "fix" magic?

[DwemerInSpace]

I personally think the ES games have gotten as simple as they can. The next one is likely to be more of a Skyrim 2 (since Skyrim is so popular in its own right apart from the ES series.) So we'll probably get a more complex game regardless.

I wouldn't even mind a larger cut down on skills (since Speech and Alteration were a buncha poop!) as long as there was an increased depth in perks and quests.

[udubdawgs]

For you maybe Xarnac. For me, it seemed fine. The fact of the matter is, you are not the only customer Bethesda has to make games for. It would be nice if they could cater to everyone, but you have to go after the largest crowd. You don't like it, fine. Saying that because you can't make enemies totally splode in a game ruins something, is really trivial.

revenue and customer-base arguments will not help those who foolishly believe that the series isn't being simplified and dumbed-down.

in fact, it supports my argument.

as well, if you really believe the spell system and magic system in skyrim is not a very obvious dumbing-down of the game, i'd really like to read your argument and its reasoning.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

All right, then how would you "fix" magic?

Was this to me? Bring back spell creation and the missing effects. Not a hard fix, you just bring back what they cut.

[CBR JGWRR]

I wouldn't even mind a larger cut down on skills (since Speech and Alteration were a buncha poop!) as long as there was an increased depth in perks and quests.

Don't say that, you'll give them an excuse...

[Musicman247]

I'd like us to move away from the term dumbing-down if we could. As someone else said, simplification does not equal dumbing down. The first computers were hella complicated to use. Does that mean today's computers can do less than those? No.

Anyway, back to the topic. You don't give up, and if you don't like something you complain to the game makers, not a bunch of strangers on the internet.

[Avron the S'wit]

All right, then how would you "fix" magic?

Was this to me? Bring back spell creation and the missing effects.

I personally think spell creation was simplistic, and think Skyrim reaches toward Howard's goal with the arcane arts. I don't think that's a fix, it's just a wanting to go back to the "way it was" because you don't like the "way it is."

Some things are a simplification of the series, without a doubt. I think dialogue has taken a huge downfall since Morrowind in terms of deepness and substance, or that taking away classes and birth signs really bites at a classic RPG element. But some things are just elements that players don't personally like and want to whine about, like missing spell creation. I think it would be important for people to recognize the difference between the two in a constructive discussion. I hear a lot of opinions in this thread that end with the line, "Well you don't agree with me so you're wrong, nanny-nanny-boo-boo."

You don't give up, and if you don't like something you complain to the game makers, not a bunch of strangers on the internet.

I agree.

[udubdawgs]

I'd like us to move away from the term dumbing-down if we could. As someone else said, simplification does not equal dumbing down. The first computers were hella complicated to use. Does that mean today's computers can do less than those? No.

Anyway, back to the topic. You don't give up, and if you don't like something you complain to the game makers, not a bunch of strangers on the internet.

i have yet to hear anyone who uses the word dumbing-down equate it to simplification or streamlining.

in fact, what i have read is THE EXACT OPPOSITE and people incorrectly applying that definition to those who use the term dumbing-down.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Was this to me? Bring back spell creation and the missing effects.
I personally think spell creation was simplistic, and think Skyrim reaches toward Howard's goal with the arcane arts. I don't think that's a fix, it's just a wanting to go back to the "way it was" because you don't like the "way it is."

No, it is having more of everything compared to less and no customization. Endless possibilities>a small static list. The magic in magic is manipulating it, not google eyeing over pretty graphics with no substance.

[Br3admax]

For you maybe Xarnac. For me, it seemed fine. The fact of the matter is, you are not the only customer Bethesda has to make games for. It would be nice if they could cater to everyone, but you have to go after the largest crowd. You don't like it, fine. Saying that because you can't make enemies totally splode in a game ruins something, is really trivial.

revenue and customer-base arguments will not help those who foolishly believe that the series isn't being simplified and dumbed-down.

in fact, it supports my argument.

as well, if you really believe the spell system and magic system in skyrim is not a very obvious dumbing-down of the game, i'd really like to read your argument and its reasoning.

All right, then how would you "fix" magic?

Was this to me? Bring back spell creation and the missing effects.

Spell creation took no talent to use. It is not an argument for simplifying down because all you need was a few quest and some spells. Then you just mix things together so you could kill in a few hits. No you need more tactics to finish a battle with magic. It is true that maybe some actually used the few hundred odd spell effects, but most just lowered elemental resistance and attacked with fire. It became a reason to make god characters, few resisted, most didn't. People complain that magic is too easy. They fix it and then they complain magic is too weak. Ughhhh. I agree that magic should scale, but otherwise I think it's fine.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Spell creation took no talent to use. It is not an argument for simplifying down because all you need was a few quest and some spells. Then you just mix things together so you could kill in a few hits. No you need more tactics to finish a battle with magic. It is true that maybe some actually used the few hundred odd spell effects, but most just lowered elemental resistance and attacked with fire. It became a reason to make god characters, few resisted, most didn't. People complain that magic is too easy. They fix it and then they complain magic is too weak. Ughhhh. I agree that magic should scale, but otherwise I think it's fine.

Nope, it is dumbing down. Removing for no reason to give us less. Endless possibilities now gone. Just because people didnt get everything out of their game is no argument against the people that did. Spell creation even added tactics and whole new ways to play. In the end, Magic in the previous games offered way more of everything. The only thing they improved were the graphics.

[ZackyZombify]

Just because people didnt get everything out of their game is no argument against the people that did.

Ironic.