The Simplification of the Series, when do you give up?

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

I was going to give up with Skyrim since it was so dumbed down and so many cornerstone features and mechanics that make the series what it is were missing. But then someone gifted it to me through Steam on launch. It's still a joke compared to its predecessors though. In a lot of ways, I'm still waiting for ES V to come out.

[udubdawgs]

I was going to give up with Skyrim since it was so dumbed down and so many cornerstone features and mechanics that make the series what it is were missing. But then someone gifted it to me through Steam on launch. It's still a joke compared to its predecessors though. In a lot of ways, I'm still waiting for ES V to come out.

some may find this interesting, given, my feelings about certain aspects of the game, but, skyrim has done something better than any game i've EVER played in my life.

true roleplaying and self-imposed roleplaying rules to greatly enhance gameplay.

of course, this is due to the games huge limitations, lol, but, it was none-the-less effective.

btw, i have always played on the console, though, that will definitely not be the case in the future.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Elaborate please, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Which limitations help you role play better?

As for console and PC, pre release Sky PR pretty much made me build a new PC. I never had to play an ES on PC (other than Dagger and Arena) because the vanilla experience gave me enough, but not with Skyrim. Just from the PR of what was going to be missing, I knew Sky was going to be a dumbed down joke compared to its predecessors. By the time it was about to release, I pretty much made up my mind I wasnt going to get it, but then it was gifted to me, so I said [&@%!] it.

[Musicman247]

Please stay on topic. That discussion can be taken to PM.

[udubdawgs]

to continue:

the simplification of the series is undeniable. it is easily proven. one has to completely ignore fact and reason to call the changes in skyrim, "complex."

when do i give up? well, i play on the 360 and will now never buy another tes game for the console until i have played it and thoroughly analyzed it. if worthy, i might buy it for the console.

solution? i'll be playing future tes games on the p.c. (with an 360 controller, lol)

[Witchery]

to continue:

the simplification of the series is undeniable. it is easily proven. one has to completely ignore fact and reason to call the changes in skyrim, "complex."

when do i give up? well, i play on the 360 and will now never buy another tes game for the console until i have played it and thoroughly analyzed it. if worthy, i might buy it for the console.

solution? i'll be playing future tes games on the p.c. (with an 360 controller, lol)

Good idea! The PC certainly livened Skyrim up for me roleplay-wise (the mods I have are mostly geared towards roleplay & immersion, ha), though the vanilla content is the whole reason I play the game. I'm sure there are mods out there that change things in Skyrim. This mod fixes up character creation and the class system, for instance (which I personally use), and this mod uses the attributes Oblivion-style.

I don't really see how Skyrim was simplified, though. . . the things they changed were merely that: changes. And not all of the changes are horrible things, really. Simplification is not necessarily a bad thing. There are some things that I would have changed or added or implemented differently, but overall, I love Skyrim.

To be honest, if you want to play a TES game with all of the features Skyrim has apparently dumbed down, you really go play the older games, like Oblivion and Morrowind. Complaining about Skyrim isn't going to change the game or the fact that you don't like the direction it went in.

[KryptonianBlood]

Oblivion held my interest for a shorter amount of time than morrowind, Skyrim held my interest for a shorter amount of time than oblivion.

I will for sure simply rent the next game in the series and check it out before buying. I always play on pc, but mods so far have not been able to give skyrim a better story, even the story focused once. Too many mods also cause bugs and crashes so I can't see them as a real solution, sure they enhanced skyrim for me, but too many are simply overpowered or cause game breaking bugs when used with other mods.

I will give up the series if the storylines are not improved, I want to feel like I've earned my place in the guilds, I want to feel emotionally involved, and upset when a guild is burnt down or someone betrays me. If I'm promoted to archmage after 3 quests again, it better be because literally every other member has been killed, not just because I am the main character.

In short, I'm done if they don't bring the writing back up, because if I had play skyrim before purchase, I would not have purchased it.

[udubdawgs]

but, complaining through debate is a very enjoyable experience for me and it keeps my mind sharp, lol!

no, simplification is not an absolute travesty, but, when combined with a thorough gutting of game mechanics that i find enjoyable, then, well, debate complaining will occur:)

[Witchery]

Oblivion held my interest for a shorter amount of time than morrowind, Skyrim held my interest for a shorter amount of time than oblivion.

I will for sure simply rent the next game in the series and check it out before buying. I always play on pc, but mods so far have not been able to give skyrim a better story, even the story focused once. Too many mods also cause bugs and crashes so I can't see them as a real solution, sure they enhanced skyrim for me, but too many are simply overpowered or cause game breaking bugs when used with other mods.

Seems like that solves all of your problems with the games. No one here can help that you don't like them.

I will give up the series if the storylines are not improved, I want to feel like I've earned my place in the guilds, I want to feel emotionally involved, and upset when a guild is burnt down or someone betrays me. If I'm promoted to archmage after 3 quests again, it better be because literally every other member has been killed, not just because I am the main character.

In short, I'm done if they don't bring the writing back up, because if I had play skyrim before purchase, I would not have purchased it.

Personally, I feel that the guilds can be done in several ways. The gamer's way, where you just rush through all of the quests. . or the roleplayer's way. You do the side-quests and the misc. quests of the Guild and elsewhere, you walk to your destinations, you complete other things and find stuff to do in between completion of the quests. You might not be Archmage until you're level 30 that way. It is a matter of personal preference. . . a longer questline is always nice, but how you play dictates how quickly you get done with it. Also, I think you don't become Archmage for roughly 9 quests. (And that's nearly 30 quests if you opt to do the other quests involving the Guild. 30 quests would take me, someone who is a pretty heavy RPer, a loooooooooooong time. A long time to prove your worth to the Guild and become a powerful mage. . . but that's just me.)

[KryptonianBlood]

I think its very important that we all learn to accept criticism. People that suggest any players who dislike the trend in the series simply play the older games, need to accept that the no Elder Scrolls game is perfect.
There are some members posting in this very thread that have not and will not admit to any flaws, and instead suggest that every grievance is actually a good thing. Until we all accept that some changes have been for the worse, we can not collectively work towards ensuring better ES games.
I preferring Morrowind, will admit it had flaws. The combat it sported simply is not fun in a free movement game and should stick to games like final fantasy. Other than that, given the technology they had at the time, I cannot think of any other flaws myself.
If we don't learn to work together and accapt criticism then despite its recent success the ES will go the way of assassin's creed, its inevitable.

Look at it this way, in 15 years, when skyrims graphics are considered horrible, what reason will people give for new people joining the series to go back and play it as opposed to just playing ES:X? X will have better combat and graphics, so what will skyrim offer?

You see that's the point right there, those looking for a challenge have no reason to go back and play. Graphics will be considered awful so that won't work either. interesting quests? Other than one or two exceptions they would be better off playing oblivion. Better storylines and more challenge? Go play Morrowind (which sadly, simply looks nicer than oblivion because of the artstyle)

Skyrim has flaws, and pretending it doesn't will not help the series grow. There are so many open-world games coming out all the time, and their getting better and better. Its up to us, the players, to demand better quality, or this series, won't be able to keep up when. The majority of the new players will leave for a flashier open-world game with better combat, many here may not have a breaking off point but others do.
So lets accept criticism and look at the games from a non-biased viewpoint, objectively. By buying future games that take away the things you love now, your telling Bethesda that you want them to keep shortening guild questlines, that you want more generic quests with one or two interesting ones per game as opposed to oblivion's many interesting weird quests, that we want less spells that look better, and that we want less and less armor pieces and less customization.
If you do not have a breaking off point, you may help ensure that we keep getting more ES games, but your also assuredly hurting the series as a whole and making it easier and easier for some new open-world rpg to steal the "king of freedom" crown the series has kept for so long.

[Avron the S'wit]

X will have better combat and graphics, so what will skyrim offer?

I would think that a lot of people who get into the series and really enjoy it tend to revisit the past titles to learn more about what led up to the current events. I know I am thoroughly enjoying playing through Daggerfall right now: it's quite intriguing!


On the subjects of the PC and mods, I have to say that mods absolutely make the game for me. I'm not talking about ones to make my characters look bustier or anything, but ones that tweak followers or horses? Absolutely. The community of modders for TES is beyond compare and is absolutely marvelous, and they make the games enjoyable by filling in anything that you personally feel is missing, to their credit. Unfortunately, I do think that, in some cases, this allows Bethesda to skirt around some things. They do know that a great appeal to the games is with mods, and they recognize the work of the modding community. If you know people will fix it for free, would you want to make everything complex from the get go?

Bethesda's job is to make a product that appeals to serious RPG players and casual video game enthusiasts. I personally think they succeed in marketing a product, but to each their own. They still have my loyalty for giving me games I enjoy!

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Yeah, it's undeniable that Sky is the most simplified and dumbed down of the series. It's pretty bad when the previous most criticized ES game (Oblivion) looks great in comparison.

I warned pre release of what was going to happen and only some listened (it wasnt hard when every PR or preview release was about how this and that is no longer in the game). It wasnt until the game finally came out that most accepted it and understood how much was gone.

But newbs don't care and all Beth seems to care about now is newb money.

[House of the Wolf]

Simplified/streamline=/=dumbed-down. A sports car is extremely streamlined compared to an 18-wheeler, but is the sports-car dumbed-down/worse compared to it?

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

It's dumbed down though, not streamlined. Even Beths PR said it. Cutting a ton of stuff lots of people used (as well as customization mechanics) and not replacing them, is not simplification - it is cutting and dumbing down.

[House of the Wolf]

Can you provide a link for that? I can't find where he said that.

[CBR JGWRR]

Simplified/streamline=/=dumbed-down. A sports car is extremely streamlined compared to an 18-wheeler, but is the sports-car dumbed-down/worse compared to it?

Definitely. Only 2 seater, no luggage space, compromised ride for cornering ability, too much performance for the public road...

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Can you provide a link for that? I can't find where he said that.

"Spell Creation was Spreadsheety"

-Todd Howard


"We removed birth signs because people were ruining their builds with them"

-Todd or Pete

And that's two of many. They basically say, "You're too stupid for this feature." Which in other words is saying, "It is too complex for the average newb or casual." Appealing to a lower common denominator=dumbing down. Though you don't need PR quips like this to see the dumbing down/idiot proofing or whatever you want to name it.

[CBR JGWRR]

"Spell Creation was Spreadsheety"

-Todd Howard

TBF, is there any way of doing it without using a spreadsheet...

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

"Spell Creation was Spreadsheety"

-Todd Howard

TBF, is there any way of doing it without using a spreadsheet...

It wasn't a spreadsheet though. 3-4 variables is not a spreadsheet. Not to mention it is the same system as Enchanting. Where was the "We're getting rid of enchanting becasue it was too spreadsheety?" There wasnt any, just people suckling the PR teet nodding their head like zombies agreeing with the dumbing down.

[CBR JGWRR]

It wasn't a spreadsheet though. 3-4 variables is not a spreadsheet. Not to mention it is the same system as Enchanting. Where was the "We're getting rid of enchanting becasue it was too spreadsheety?"

I was referring to the underlying programming itself...

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

It wasn't a spreadsheet though. 3-4 variables is not a spreadsheet. Not to mention it is the same system as Enchanting. Where was the "We're getting rid of enchanting becasue it was too spreadsheety?"

I was referring to the underlying programming itself...

But what does a Dev programing spell creation have to do with the player's experience with it. Todd wasnt talking about Devs thinking it was too spreadsheety, he was talking about a non existent demographic.

[KryptonianBlood]

"Spell Creation was Spreadsheety"

-Todd Howard

TBF, is there any way of doing it without using a spreadsheet...

Whats wrong with using a spread sheet? In final fantasy games I keep pen and paper close in 13 to keep track of certain things.
and besides, if you need a spread sheet or pen and paper for spell-making, well, maybe you would find the fable series more enjoyable, because spell-making something very powerful is quite easy. You simply had many choices, the trick is, pick what YOU like (customization).

[Avron the S'wit]

Can you provide a link for that? I can't find where he said that.

"Spell Creation was Spreadsheety"

-Todd Howard


"We removed birth signs because people were ruining their builds with them"

-Todd or Pete

And that's two of many. They basically say, "You're too stupid for this feature." Which in other words is saying, "It is too complex for the average newb or casual." Appealing to a lower common denominator=dumbing down. Though you don't need PR quips like this to see the dumbing down/idiot proofing or whatever you want to name it.

Source? I Googled this and didn't get any hits.

Edit: Just you quoting it doesn't count. I'm actually curious.

[CBR JGWRR]

But what does a Dev programing spell creation have to do with the player's experience with it. Todd wasnt talking about Devs thinking it was too spreadsheety, he was talking about a non existent demographic.

Probably.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Edit: Just you quoting it doesn't count. I'm actually curious.

I don't have links. It is pre release Beth PR. It is also widely known (especially the spell creation quote). Ask anybody that knows their stuff and was around pre release. I'll try to find links, but I'm going to be searching the same sources as you'd be.