The Simplification of the Series, when do you give up?

[KryptonianBlood]

We can all agree that each game in the series is continually being made more simple, and more impatient-friendly. This thread is not about listing the countless dumb-downed things in the game.

Skyrim MAY have made a few improvements in SOME areas over oblivion, but each improvement was met with another three or four removed features or simplification of SOMEWHAT kept features.

We all agree the on the whole the game simplifying more than its improving as a series.


So what I ask all or you is, what would it take, how simple would an elder scrolls game have to be, before you quit buying them?


I'd like to hear where everyone would draw the line, be it auto-aim, auto-stat progression, removal of sleep function, one-piece armor, or something else. Assuming there is a line and you don't play these games simply because of the name, where is that line for you personally?




I will go first. If I play another elder scrolls with a mainquest line as awful as that in skyrim's, I am done right then and there with the series until someone tells me its improved. No buying anymore and finding out myself after forking over the cash. That's all it would take for me at this point, another skyrim. Now what about you? where do YOU draw the line?

[Musicman247]

I play Elder Scrolls games for the story, immersive world and lore, not necessarily the gameplay. I suppose if they add guns I would be ready to drop the series.

[ZackyZombify]

When they're not being made anymore. I'm a loyal fan. Not a fanboy.

[Chaos the N'wah]

I play for the lore, it would take some excessive retcons on particular subjects or a rigid no-hybrid gameplay system to scare me away

[House of the Wolf]

I play it because it's fun, and because I like to world/lore. It would take a ridiculous ruination of the entire story to push me away--or game-ending bugs that aren't fixed (it's happened with other games). As it stands for me right now, the story/lore is still impressive, and they've (so far) addressed the vast amounts of bugs that were previously present.

[KryptonianBlood]

Its the subpar lore that is really killing it for me. So even if the quality of the new lore continues to degrade that would still be okay?

I quit the resident evil series once the storyline stopped being fantastic. I do hope they get some of the writers back that came up with the storylines in the morrowind and oblivion guilds, because one or two decent in-game books is not enough for this guy.

[Witchery]

Its the subpar lore that is really killing it for me. So even if the quality of the new lore continues to degrade that would still be okay?

I quit the resident evil series once the storyline stopped being fantastic. I do hope they get some of the writers back that came up with the storylines in the morrowind and oblivion guilds, because one or two decent in-game books is not enough for this guy.

I quite like the lore that has been recently introduced. Can you give an example of what you don't like, specifically, so we can understand better?

[Br3admax]

I'm not going to give up on a series just because fire spells cost a little less and I can't have charisma.

[Musicman247]

Its the subpar lore that is really killing it for me. So even if the quality of the new lore continues to degrade that would still be okay?

I quit the resident evil series once the storyline stopped being fantastic. I do hope they get some of the writers back that came up with the storylines in the morrowind and oblivion guilds, because one or two decent in-game books is not enough for this guy.

I quite like the lore that has been recently introduced. Can you give an example of what you don't like, specifically, so we can understand better?

Agreed. The addition of the Forsworn, witches, Hagravens, Briarhearts, the Thalmor, dragons, all of it has been pretty well done as far as my tastes are concerned. The Lore isn't front and center like it was in Morrowind and to a lesser extent Oblivion, but it's still there for those who go looking for it.

[Br3admax]

Its the subpar lore that is really killing it for me. So even if the quality of the new lore continues to degrade that would still be okay?

I quit the resident evil series once the storyline stopped being fantastic. I do hope they get some of the writers back that came up with the storylines in the morrowind and oblivion guilds, because one or two decent in-game books is not enough for this guy.

I quite like the lore that has been recently introduced. Can you give an example of what you don't like, specifically, so we can understand better?

Agreed. The addition of the Forsworn, witches, Hagravens, Briarhearts, the Thalmor, dragons, all of it has been pretty well done as far as my tastes are concerned. The Lore isn't front and center like it was in Morrowind and to a lesser extent Oblivion, but it's still there for those who go looking for it.

I disagree. Skyrim just uses a lot of more...unorthodox and OOG lore.

[House of the Wolf]

Ditto on Witchery and MMM.

I'll just add that they do an interesting (mostly good) job of filling in some of the previous holes present in previous-game lore. Some of it seems thrown together, but most if it fits in quite nicely. And a lot of the new lore, like the Great War, is actually quite entertaining.

[Ygern]

To answer the question: you give up when you aren't interested in the game any more. I mean, what would be the point of playing on?

I play for pleasure, and Skyrim has given me a lot of pleasure - especially in terms of lore. They really made a huge effort to draw on all their previous games and history to flesh out the game.

And I'm not sure that everything in it is "simpler". Alchemy isn't really simpler, if anything it is as much of a challenge as it was in Morrowind - you can fail at making a potion quite a lot, especially if you are not using "resources" like UESP Wiki's Ingredient page to help you along or putting Perks into the Skill.
I didn't like the sound of One-hand and Two-hand when the game was not yet released, but it isn't exactly "simplified" in the way it sounded like it was going to be. You can still decide to specialize in Axes and ignore Maces, Hammers and Swords if you want to.

Granted, it is harder to play the sort of Classes you could get the old Attributes & Class system, but it isn't impossible and provides a sort of challenge in itself to create a proper BattleMage.

What I really do like about the game is what I get from most of the games in the TES series: I can just go off and do whatever I want to for as long as I want to, and the game accommodates it all.

Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with the TES series. Sure there are a few tweaks here and there that I make via mods. But I roleplay at my own pace and even now after a year of roaming around Skyrim I am still finding places I have never been and quests I have never done and items I have never found and dungeons I have never explored. There are even questlines I haven't finished yet.

[Witchery]

Well said, Ygern, I couldn't agree more!

[Hrolf Alfblod]

I second that, Ygern.

[KryptonianBlood]

Its the subpar lore that is really killing it for me. So even if the quality of the new lore continues to degrade that would still be okay?

I quit the resident evil series once the storyline stopped being fantastic. I do hope they get some of the writers back that came up with the storylines in the morrowind and oblivion guilds, because one or two decent in-game books is not enough for this guy.

I quite like the lore that has been recently introduced. Can you give an example of what you don't like, specifically, so we can understand better?

Its hard to give an example of lack of something, but I'll try. Dawnguard for example. Sarina? I hope I spelled that right, hides in the crypt to keep her father away from the elder scroll, and then when you wake her up the first thing she does is head back to his castle with it. It's just not believable.

lore-wise Alduin had no mention before this game, so its safe to say everything involving him is new lore, and its pretty underwhelming. Almost depth there or in really any of the new dragon lore except that they have their own language. I could have wrote more interesting dragon lore that was just as unique.


So yeah the forsworn are neat, but they might as well be re-skinned bandits. even when you meet the leader you learn so little about them. We know they still worship the animal gods and that's it. It would be nice to have books on them, to perhaps talk to one who had been kicked out. actually learn something about them more than we already knew.

And what lore that is conveyed through any means other than an in-game book is horribly written. Awful. there's not one quest-line with good dialogue other than the dark brotherhood imo, although I understand some do like the thieves guild dialogue.

they wasted giants. I would have loved to known more about their intelligence. It would have been amazing to see one riding a mammoth. or with his wife. Or have the chance to rescue one from angry nords. but even with the book on giants we learned nothing new about them. where is the lore for these seemingly sentient beings? I wasn't lore explaining how they reproduce without females, explaining their culture. a book about their intelligence or lack thereof?

what new lore was added was shallow and not done as well as lore in either of the two previous series. It stands that if the lore isn't as good as oblivions, and that wasn't as good as morrowinds, then it is degrading.

And can anyone argue the storyline for the mainquest was in the least bit good? There was no moment in the mainquest that even came close to martins big speach with all of the guards from different towns, or his sacrifice. Mankar Camerons world was so much more interesting than sovenguard.


and......I can't spell at all on this new keyboard. lol

[Archer]

As for serana, she didn't know if her mother or her father would be at the castle. Thats why she went back.
And to the forsworn, there are several books and in game dialogue that describes them. You just have to search it out.
Alduin has been mentioned before in the past games and lore.
I agree with you on the story and giants, though. A lot more could have been done in that department.

[Br3admax]

First I want to say that if anything comes across as harsh in this, it is not intended to be.

Its hard to give an example of lack of something, but I'll try. Dawnguard for example. Sarina? I hope I spelled that right, hides in the crypt to keep her father away from the elder scroll, and then when you wake her up the first thing she does is head back to his castle with it. It's just not believable.

Serana, and actually it makes perfect sense. She's a young woman who has no idea what to do and was not told of why she was in a cave. Women love their fathers, go figure.

lore-wise Alduin had no mention before this game, so its safe to say everything involving him is new lore, and its pretty underwhelming. Almost depth there or in really any of the new dragon lore except that they have their own language. I could have wrote more interesting dragon lore that was just as unique.

This is all completely wrong. All of these things were established before Morrowind came out. Check up on that.

So yeah the forsworn are neat, but they might as well be re-skinned bandits. even when you meet the leader you learn so little about them. We know they still worship the animal gods and that's it. It would be nice to have books on them, to perhaps talk to one who had been kicked out. actually learn something about them more than we already knew.

It's not a social club, they are a people. And they are explained in ingame books. They are around Markarth, so go read them.

And what lore that is conveyed through any means other than an in-game book is horribly written. Awful. there's not one quest-line with good dialogue other than the dark brotherhood imo, although I understand some do like the thieves guild dialogue.

And this is different from before how? Plus I completely disagree. Use all of the dialogue options.

they wasted giants. I would have loved to known more about their intelligence. It would have been amazing to see one riding a mammoth. or with his wife. Or have the chance to rescue one from angry nords. but even with the book on giants we learned nothing new about them. where is the lore for these seemingly sentient beings? I wasn't lore explaining how they reproduce without females, explaining their culture. a book about their intelligence or lack thereof?

Game mechanics, plus they don't need help. They are explained in a book called Ode To the Tundrastriders.

what new lore was added was shallow and not done as well as lore in either of the two previous series. It stands that if the lore isn't as good as oblivions, and that wasn't as good as morrowinds, then it is degrading.

And I'm sure someone will say that Skyrim was better than ES VI. We all have our preferences, just look for the new lore.

And can anyone argue the storyline for the mainquest was in the least bit good? There was no moment in the mainquest that even came close to martins big speach with all of the guards from different towns, or his sacrifice. Mankar Camerons world was so much more interesting than sovenguard.

We aren't playing Oblivion. If I wanted to do that I would be playing that. We are a voiceless character. Add in your own speeches. We are a hero in our own right, not Martin Septim 2.0. And Mankar Cameron is a personal grassland. Sovngarde is a place of battle. How can you compare them?

[Witchery]

Its hard to give an example of lack of something, but I'll try. Dawnguard for example. Sarina? I hope I spelled that right, hides in the crypt to keep her father away from the elder scroll, and then when you wake her up the first thing she does is head back to his castle with it. It's just not believable.

Yeah, that seemed odd, but that wasn't really lore, just a strange decision on Serana's part.

lore-wise Alduin had no mention before this game, so its safe to say everything involving him is new lore, and its pretty underwhelming. Almost depth there or in really any of the new dragon lore except that they have their own language. I could have wrote more interesting dragon lore that was just as unique.

I think that the dragons are extremely interesting, and the storyline did a fair job of building up the whole impending doom aspect of Alduin. It was a bit underwhelming in some places, yes, but the conflict adds a lot to the game. . and a lot more lore. Dragons are something we didn't know much about before this game.

So yeah the forsworn are neat, but they might as well be re-skinned bandits. even when you meet the leader you learn so little about them. We know they still worship the animal gods and that's it. It would be nice to have books on them, to perhaps talk to one who had been kicked out. actually learn something about them more than we already knew.

Well, there are several books about the Forsworn and their culture, and there's a lot of information in quests, letters, and . . just in their camps/forts/hideouts. They're not bandits, they are a subculture of Bretons. (Like the Skaal are of Nords, or the Ashlanders are of Dunmer) They don't worship animal gods, as far as I can tell. . . aspects of the Divines, possibly, and Daedra worship on the Hagraven side of things. Lorkhan, possibly, certainly an aspect of Dibella, maybe Kyne or Hircine . . . we don't really know much yet, but they're still a very interesting addition to the lore. I personally love them.

And what lore that is conveyed through any means other than an in-game book is horribly written. Awful. there's not one quest-line with good dialogue other than the dark brotherhood imo, although I understand some do like the thieves guild dialogue.

I'm not really sure what you mean here. I learned a lot through dialogue. . .

they wasted giants. I would have loved to known more about their intelligence. It would have been amazing to see one riding a mammoth. or with his wife. Or have the chance to rescue one from angry nords. but even with the book on giants we learned nothing new about them. where is the lore for these seemingly sentient beings? I wasn't lore explaining how they reproduce without females, explaining their culture. a book about their intelligence or lack thereof?

No, they're a small but very intriguing part of Skyrim. They add a bit of life to the game, and we know a bit about them. Also, I think there are probably females. . . the "all-male" giant population is just a game mechanic. Previously, all Falmer models were male, but we know that isn't true. (Now, some creatures, like Spriggans, Hagravens and Wispmothers are one gender because they do not reproduce, but those are three entirely different concepts.)

what new lore was added was shallow and not done as well as lore in either of the two previous series. It stands that if the lore isn't as good as oblivions, and that wasn't as good as morrowinds, then it is degrading.

And can anyone argue the storyline for the mainquest was in the least bit good? There was no moment in the mainquest that even came close to martins big speach with all of the guards from different towns, or his sacrifice. Mankar Camerons world was so much more interesting than sovenguard.


and......I can't spell at all on this new keyboard. lol

I guess you're entitled to your opinions.

[Br3admax]

Well, as I said, Alduin and dragons aren't new. A lot of this was even in Oblivion, if you looked hard enough. The Thu'um is not new and neither is Alduin.

[KryptonianBlood]

Buddy I referred to the book on giants and its lack of information in my post, did you even read it? I didn't say I wanted oblivion, I said I wanted quest-lines with as much depth at least.


and where is Alduin mentioned anywhere before skyrim?


You do not seem capable of making a logical point about how the script writing is comparable to that of previous games, you simply use childish tactics like telling me to play oblivion.

When in the main-quest of skyrim did you feel emotionally invested? What scenes made you forget you were playing a game? What characters death bothered you during the main-quest?

[Avron the S'wit]

If you don't like the games, why are you on a TES-related forum to discuss them?

I mean, call me mean, but I'm calling a spade a spade here. And furthermore, everyone be civil or I'll be handing out some nice warnings. That includes you, Krypton.

[Witchery]

When in the main-quest of skyrim did you feel emotionally invested? What scenes made you forget you were playing a game? What characters death bothered you during the main-quest?

Spoiler:

Unbound; Season Unending; ...no one really died in the main quest that I remember.

[Br3admax]

Buddy I referred to the book on giants and its lack of information in my post, did you even read it? I didn't say I wanted oblivion, I said I wanted quest-lines with as much depth at least.

Yes I read it, and I'm saying the book explains enough. Quest don't make lore, you know. Talking to people about things does. Study how they behave without someone telling you to.

and where is Alduin mentioned anywhere before skyrim?

It is mentioned even in Morrowind. Plenty of books about religion talk about him. People believed he was simply Akatosh.

You do not seem capable of making a logical point about how the script writing is comparable to that of previous games, you simply use childish tactics like telling me to play oblivion.

Money in card or just money. Who cares; I'll still spend it. The writing is fine and to slam because someone doesn't say, "We are the best!" seems unfair.

When in the main-quest of skyrim did you feel emotionally invested? What scenes made you forget you were playing a game? What characters death bothered you during the main-quest?

It's okay to have your own opinions, but maybe everyone doesn't feel that way. I never felt that way about any game because I play them to enjoy myself. When did I feel that way in Oblivion for that matter? To me they are just for fun.

[Musicman247]

You seem to like just throwing out accusations and then dismissing the answers people give you.

As far as moments I felt invested, talking with Paarthurnax was one for me. He is such an interesting character when you go through all of the dialogue options. His story made me struggle with the decision to stop Alduin or not. He makes a good case for letting the world just end.

[Ygern]

Actually I thought the climax of Oblivion's vanilla main quest was a bit problematic. Yes, it was an emotional punch. That part was great. But it completely side-lined you the gamer. You were simply a bodyguard to Martin during the fight to get to the Temple, and then you kind of stood around and filed your nails while Martin and Dagon took swipes at each other.

I thought it wasn't the best way to treat the player character. In that respect, Sovngard is better handled than the Temple of the One.

Speaking of Oblivion, you frequently heard people talking about the Greybeards of Skyrim in the streets of Chorrol. Call me a softie , but I teared-up plenty of times playing through Skyrim the first time whenever I came across references to previous games and characters and books* and events. I find the lore very rich, personally.

I loved that it took me ages to decide which side to join in the Civil War. And I loved that for the first time ever I started to have doubts about the Blades.

*back in the pre-internet days, I read ALL the Morrowind books by loading them up in the construction set one by one.

Oh, and Alduin, High Hrothgar, dragons etc are all mentioned in Morrowind books.