Halo 4

[DarkEastwood]

DMR: I agree, but it's not better by a long shot (hehe...). The Covenant Carbine beats it out in clip and fire rate, the Light Rifle beats it out in power and versatile play, and the BR (I may be wrong) has better range. The DMR is a good mix of all of these, which is why people love it. I think if they made the fire rate a bit slower, it'd be a good balance.

Ordinance Drops: I looove Ordinance Drops. It encourages intense movement rather than the whole team camping at a Rocket spawn. But some smaller maps could do with the old way.

Competition: I'd say I'm competitive online (which I lack. I go to my friends house now), participating in tournaments and leagues organized online. But I regularly host Halo tourney's at my house with 20-30 friends, which is really casual.

[BetaB17]

DMR: I agree, but it's not better by a long shot (hehe...). The Covenant Carbine beats it out in clip and fire rate, the Light Rifle beats it out in power and versatile play, and the BR (I may be wrong) has better range. The DMR is a good mix of all of these, which is why people love it. I think if they made the fire rate a bit slower, it'd be a good balance.

Ordinance Drops: I looove Ordinance Drops. It encourages intense movement rather than the whole team camping at a Rocket spawn. But some smaller maps could do with the old way.

Competition: I'd say I'm competitive online (which I lack. I go to my friends house now), participating in tournaments and leagues organized online. But I regularly host Halo tourney's at my house with 20-30 friends, which is really casual.

Actually the DMR is better than the BR but both are very similar. The rest clearly have differences while the light rifle packs more punch. The DMR is the better than the BR in terms of range, but the BR is "easier" to handle in mid range and has a burst fire. In reality, the DMR wins when you can apply skill and is overall the most balanced. Then you got the boltshot... which is just overkill...
As for the drops, they are nice but they should of kept a ready supply of smaller arms on the maps. As for some games, the drops love to be one sides for teams and can be very unbalanced.
As for competitive, halo was always more about fun and fair play. Hints why its perfect for tournaments. But 4 ruined something, nobody is on even terms, Before regardless of rank, everyone was equal and the game called for luck, skill, and lag... Now the over customization puts a strain and even puts new players at a clear disadvantage. Reach was by far more relaxed and welcoming

[Velvet LeChance]

Ordinance:If the whole team camps at rocket spawn you just set your team up to take the sniper and shottie spawns. Spawning encouraged movement as players had to hold different parts of the map in order to pick up the sniper or the shotgun or the spartan laser for their team. I don't know how allowing people to spawn a Binary rifle in front of them after X number of points encourages movement. I can now camp with my DMR/Boltshot and get my 100 points (or whatever). I personally hate ordinance as explained on the last page. Adds randomness to a game which has enough randomness as it is.

DMR: Regardless of whats best at what DMR is good at everything and therefore is picked above all. I think it needs to be nerfed slightly in order to give people an incentive to choose other weapons. Going into the game we were told that DMR is best long range. BR is best mid range. AR is best close range. DMR is best all range. To my knowledge the Boltshot was nerfed and is now not so ridiculously overpowered.

Equality: Halo was an arena shooter. Everyone started off equal, same weapons, same amount of the same type of grenades, same everything. That was up until Reach when they started adding classes so that people started with different armour abilities (Jetpack and AL being the most annoying). Halo 4 furthered the amount of customisation with custom classes and such so now players don't start off equal any longer. Ordinence dropped only added to this with the randomness.

What I'd like to see is one playlist (I'm only asking for one) that used the old way of doing things. Weapons spawns, no AA's, set classes, sprint turned off etc. And a proper ranking system like Halo 3's. That's all.

[Frost Mage]

I completely agree, Velvet, and 343i has acknowledged it (albeit a little late...) and has big plans for turning Halo 4 into a game that can at least compare the the greatness and competitiveness that is Halo.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm actually surprised that there are people like you on this forum that know a lot about why Halo 4 isn't as great as its predecessors, other than giving the reason, "it'll never be as good as Halo 2/3". There are so, so, so many layers of why the Halo 4 formula doesn't work, and you successfully addressed some of the big ones. So for that I commend you.

[BetaB17]

But.. But what of Beta >:
In all honesty, facts and experience outweigh promises and popular views.
Hints the many over rated and under rated games of history

[POMC S117]

I disagree with most of this. Most of this stuff doesn't really bother me. I don't even notice it. Yes, maybe that's because I'm not a competitive player. I don't play to win, I play to have fun. Going up ranks is, to me, just a by-product of having said fun. I personally find Halo 4 more enjoyable than the other Halos (with the exclusion of Halo 3 because that last mission. They could have made a box of [&@%!] and just included that mission and it would have been a very great game). I like the ordinance drops. More realistic than "Hey. What's this rocket doing just lying there. Who left that there? That's not good military protocol. WHAT IF OUR WEAPON GETS INTO ENEMY HANDS.". The ordinance drops makes me feel like I'm in a battlefield (even though its a simulation, but still). I like it that it keeps the game random, which makes it more fun, in my opinion. It makes you need to adapt to fight your enemy. I've been saved from death before by having an ordinance drop land on my enemy. That was awesome.

[BetaB17]

Calls in ordnance drop.. Its a trap!

[POMC S117]

Hey, that's my line!

IT'S A TRAP!

[Velvet LeChance]

Pomcey you must be one of the few people having fun because this doesn't happen to a game everyone is having fun in. It didn't happen in Halo 3. It didn't happen in Halo 2 (and that sucked when it first came out). It didn't even happen in Halo Reach. Halo 4 cam barely even scrap 40,000 people at peak times It has gone so bad. Bad in ways that I have outlined above and more.

I like it that it keeps the game random, which makes it more fun, in my opinion. It makes you need to adapt to fight your enemy. I've been saved from death before by having an ordinance drop land on my enemy. That was awesome.

Randomness compresses the skill gap. Makes it so that you don't have to try and learn to be good at the game because everything is pretty easy at the start. If I wanted complete randomness in my gameplay I would play COD. Simple as that.

I like the ordinance drops. More realistic than "Hey. What's this rocket doing just lying there. Who left that there? That's not good military protocol. WHAT IF OUR WEAPON GETS INTO ENEMY HANDS.". The ordinance drops makes me feel like I'm in a battlefield (even though its a simulation, but still).

It's just a simulation it doesn't have to be realistic and I'd prefer solid gameplay and good game mechanics over realism any day.

I completely agree, Velvet, and 343i has acknowledged it (albeit a little late...) and has big plans for turning Halo 4 into a game that can at least compare the the greatness and competitiveness that is Halo.

To my knowledge it has only been Frankie (that's their PR guy) that has admitted that 343 have made a bad game. The actual company hasn't yet. And I wouldn't get your hopes up about huge changes and the game becoming great like its Bungie crafted predecessors. I haven't.

[DarkEastwood]

I like it that it keeps the game random, which makes it more fun, in my opinion. It makes you need to adapt to fight your enemy. I've been saved from death before by having an ordinance drop land on my enemy. That was awesome.

Randomness compresses the skill gap. Makes it so that you don't have to try and learn to be good at the game because everything is pretty easy at the start. If I wanted complete randomness in my gameplay I would play COD. Simple as that.

Except... COD I the opposite of random. COD sucks because its redundant trash, where there's no randomness at all. So in any case, I'd say they're stepping away from COD.

I see what you did there though Take something about a game and tag it to COD so the trait seems like awfulness. Which redundancy is awful, which is why 343i made it more random. You know what game that's incredibly fun, mostly due to randomness? Mario Kart. Sure, it's tougher to get competitive with it, but I don't know anyone who would say "I think we should get rid of items in Mario Kart because it compresses the skill gap", because the randomness of the weapons is what makes it fun! Same goes for Halo 4; if they replaced ordinance drops with regular old weapon spawns, most rounds would be almost the same as the last.

[Velvet LeChance]

No I used Cod because Pomcey has told me before that he likes playing COD. You can insert some other modern mainstream FPS if you want. And yes COD does contain a lot of randomness such as maybe the custom classes which allow you to start off with any weapon you want giving an uneven playing field from the off. I'm also aware that COD may use the same (winning) formula year in year out but I don't see how that makes the game any less random. Unless I'm reading you wrong.

EDIT: Please note however that randomness means random elements to the gameplay not that each game is drastically different to the last. I think that you may be in fact misreading me.

Mario Kart is fun. Mario Kart is not a competitive game. If you want to show someone how great you were at driving simulators you'd beat them at Forza or something. I have never once argued that Halo 4 isn't a fun game. Plenty of people find it fun or we wouldn't have a peak of 40,000 a day (which is poor considering that it was 400,000 the day it came out 6 months ago.) I'm saying that Halo 4 is broken as a competitive game because of the randomness amongst other things.

I could argue that every football match is the same. Teams are trying to do the same thing yet employ different tactics. The same is true with Halo. Teams are trying to do the same thing yet use different tactics.

[POMC S117]

Pomcey you must be one of the few people having fun because this doesn't happen to a game everyone is having fun in. It didn't happen in Halo 3. It didn't happen in Halo 2 (and that sucked when it first came out). It didn't even happen in Halo Reach. Halo 4 cam barely even scrap 40,000 people at peak times It has gone so bad. Bad in ways that I have outlined above and more.

Should that not be we instead of "you"? Because:

I have never once argued that Halo 4 isn't a fun game. Plenty of people find it fun or we wouldn't have a peak of 40,000 a day (which is poor considering that it was 400,000 the day it came out 6 months ago.)

I like it that it keeps the game random, which makes it more fun, in my opinion. It makes you need to adapt to fight your enemy. I've been saved from death before by having an ordinance drop land on my enemy. That was awesome.

Randomness compresses the skill gap. Makes it so that you don't have to try and learn to be good at the game because everything is pretty easy at the start. If I wanted complete randomness in my gameplay I would play COD. Simple as that.

Randomness stops the game from getting stagnant. It creates new scenarios each time. And yes, it makes you need to get good at the game because you have to learn to adapt.

For example, if I'm in, say, a Scorpion. I'm killing lots of people because they've only got ARs and DMRs. Then, someone gets a rocket launcher and I need to get out of that Scorpion or kill him fast or I'm dead. You need to learn to face different scenarios, different weapons, different tactics.

I like the ordinance drops. More realistic than "Hey. What's this rocket doing just lying there. Who left that there? That's not good military protocol. WHAT IF OUR WEAPON GETS INTO ENEMY HANDS.". The ordinance drops makes me feel like I'm in a battlefield (even though its a simulation, but still).

It's just a simulation it doesn't have to be realistic and I'd prefer solid gameplay and good game mechanics over realism any day.

Personal preference, then.

[Velvet LeChance]

]Should that not be we instead of "you"? Because.

Check how many people bought the game on the day of release and the subsequent weeks after release. Compare that number to the peak number of people logging online to play Halo 4 each day. Hell just look at the drop of 360,000 people that have stopped playing Halo 4 over the last 6 months and have either gone back to the old games or given up all together.

Randomness stops the game from getting stagnant. It creates new scenarios each time. And yes, it makes you need to get good at the game because you have to learn to adapt.

Boring old Halo 3 with its lack of randomness and its stagnancy still draws thousands of players. Halo 2 was being played by loads of people up until the servers closed in 2009. This game is only 6 months old and is only scraping 40,000 I'm afraid to see how much further that number will drop in a year's time.

For example, if I'm in, say, a Scorpion. I'm killing lots of people because they've only got ARs and DMRs. Then, someone gets a rocket launcher and I need to get out of that Scorpion or kill him fast or I'm dead. You need to learn to face different scenarios, different weapons, different tactics.

That happened in earlier Halos I don't see your point.

EDIT: Though I think we are getting slightly off the point her. The argument is around the lack of equality and the randomness in Halo 4 making for a less competitive game.

[POMC S117]

]Should that not be we instead of "you"? Because.

Check how many people bought the game on the day of release and the subsequent weeks after release. Compare that number to the peak number of people logging online to play Halo 4 each day. Hell just look at the drop of 360,000 people that have stopped playing Halo 4 over the last 6 months and have either gone back to the old games or given up all together.

I checked but you do seem to be contradicting yourself. First, you say that I must be one of the only people who think its fun, then you say that you've never argued that it isn't fun and the fact that 40,000 people still play it shows that. I'm not denying that the game hasn't dropped in numbers.

Randomness stops the game from getting stagnant. It creates new scenarios each time. And yes, it makes you need to get good at the game because you have to learn to adapt.

Boring old Halo 3 with its lack of randomness and its stagnancy still draws thousands of players. Halo 2 was being played by loads of people up until the servers closed in 2009. This game is only 6 months old and is only scraping 40,000 I'm afraid to see how much further that number will drop in a year's time.

I never said it was boring. Can you see where I said it was boring? Wait while I go find my glasses. Oh! Here they are. Wait... I haven't said that Halo 3 is boring... in fact, earlier I said that I liked 3 better than 4. Hmmm...

Halo 3 had a different type of randomness. That's what kept it from going boring. Halo 4's randomness keeps Halo 4 from going boring, too. In my opinion.

For example, if I'm in, say, a Scorpion. I'm killing lots of people because they've only got ARs and DMRs. Then, someone gets a rocket launcher and I need to get out of that Scorpion or kill him fast or I'm dead. You need to learn to face different scenarios, different weapons, different tactics.

That happened in earlier Halos I don't see your point.

Except, it happens much quicker and applies to far more situations than the hypothetical one I posted.

[Velvet LeChance]

Point One: I said your one of the few people that still thinks its fun. 40,000 is a few people when we are talking about the amount playing Halo. As I said I never once argued that Halo isn't a fun game. That's all subjective. I'm saying that fewer people are finding it funner than ever before and the statistics prove that.

I myself don't find it fun but we're not here to debate whether mé and you find it fun we are here to talk about whether the masses are finding it fun. Statistics show that a good proportion if them are not.

Point 3: The rockets and the scorpion both spawn at the begining of the game on most maps.

Point 2:

Halo 3 had a different type of randomness.

Care to elaborate? I'm actually quite interested to see what you come up with.

[POMC S117]

Point 1:

I'm not here to talk about whether the masses find it fun. The masses can go and [&@%!] themselves for all I care. I don't play the game to see if others find it fun. We're only arguing because I stated my views and then you were making it to look as if I were wrong with subjective views and then brought out statistics to say that other people didn't find it fun. Cool, that's nice to know but I'll keep playing it for as long as I find it fun.

Point 2:

The weapons spawn only at set positions so whoever and whenever someone gets them is what makes it random. In Halo 4, weapons spawn naturally or people spawn with them or they come in via ordinance drops. That makes it even more random.

Point 3:

Yes. I know that.

[Velvet LeChance]

Point One: KK.

Point 2 (Halo 3): I explained on the previous page about weapon timing and how that isn't randomness.

[POMC S117]

The time when people pick it up is random. That's what makes it random. Are you saying that when you play Halo 3 it has no degree of randomness? That each game you play will be the same? If that's what you are saying then I'd say that it must get pretty boring when you play Halo 3. I'm just glad that when I play it, different stuff happens to keep the game from being repetitive.

[Velvet LeChance]

EDIT: Please note however that randomness means random elements to the gameplay not that each game is drastically different to the last. I think that you may be in fact misreading me.

I said this earlier. Rockets spawning every 180 seconds after pick ip isn't random. Why? Becauase the time they spawn is set to be 180 seconds after pick up.

Edit: Please read my earlier posts in response to DarkEastwood.

[POMC S117]

The time when people pick it up is random.

People don't have a set time at when they pick it up, when they get killed carrying it and who they use it against and what the people who they use it against are doing.

[Velvet LeChance]

Not if you know they are going to spawn every 180 seconds. You just need to be there 180 seconds after there last pick up. They'll roughly spawn at 11:50, 8:50, 5:50, 2:50. If they get picked up late you just need to do some basic maths to work out when they next spawn.

Another thing that makes the weapon spawns less random is that you know only one rocket launcher is going to spawn with a set amount of bullets. In Halo 4 there could be any number of Rockot holders on each team.

Though we really are just going around in circles here if you want to continue with your belief that Halo 3 had random elements with spawning being part of that continue to do so. My original point was that Halo 4 is less competitive than its predecessors because of the inequality between players and the randomness in it.

[POMC S117]

About the last paragraph, how can you prove that it's less competitive? Is there an equation or a scale to measure how competitive something is? We're really just arguing opinions.

[DarkEastwood]

Lets put it this way. Velvet said earlier how randomness is for the more casual gamers, like in Mario Kart. Well maybe me and Pomcey are more casual and Velvet is more competitive. That's why we like it different ways. It's still opinion driven, as we like to express the facts different ways.

[Musicman247]

It's cool to hate on Halo 4, I guess. Not enough 1337s like it.

Hidden:

that was a joke

[Velvet LeChance]

@Pomcey:MLG dropped Halo 4 from their circuit probably supports that it is a less competitive game than its predecessors.

How you evaluate how competitive a game us however is as you said a matter of opinion. However I believe that the lack of equality between players starting the game is making it less competitive coupled with its large amount of randomness is damaging Halos competitiveness. But as you said earlier you are not a competitive player and do not care if you win or lose. Why should you care about Halos competitiveness?

Though to conclude I would just like to draw on the comparisons between football and Halo again. Football is the most popular game in the world. Football has also remained roughly the same for the last 100 years. Note how in football you have an even playing field the game us based on the skill of the players and luck to an extent. This us how it was in Halo. Both teams started off equal. It was an even playing field. It revolved around skill and to a certain extent luck. Halo 4 has damaged the equality un the game with its custom classes and such.

@DarkEastwood: I'm not saying that Halo should be solely competitive. The competitive fanbase makes up about 10%-20% of the Halo fanbase by my reckoning. Creating a slowly competitive Halo would be bad for business. However over casualising (CODernising) the game in the hope of compressing the skill gap and drawing players from other games is a bad idea and has damaged Halo's competitive edge and not to mention failed badly judging my the statistics.

I'm not asking for 343 to completely change Halo I just want them to take into an account what the competitive fanbase,want when they're making Halo 5. Bring Ranked and Sociol back. Allow for both competitive and casual gameplay.

As stated above all I want to see in Halo 4 is one Classic Slayer playlist and a proper ranking system. You guys can keep your ordinance drops and sprint and whatever.

@Musicman: I don't complain about Halo because I hate it. I complain because I love it and don't want to see the franchise die.