Sun Damage

[Kerr]

At last I have played Dawnguard. Until now I have never played as a vampire. I just became a werewolf and stayed as one. However now that I have, one of the things that worried me about vampirism has come to light. That is the lack of sun damage and the lack of NPC reactions at stage 4 vampirism. I understand these reactions existed in the base game, so I question why they got rid of them. But lack of sun damage just bugs me. I assume it was because people complained about how annoying sun damage could be in Oblivion. But if you aren't willing to put up with not going out in the sun, don't play as a vampire. Alternatively you should feed on sleeping mortals. Instead they scraped sun damage and ruined vampirism for those who want to play as a actual vampire. By reducing the advantages and weaknesses it is pretty much the same as playing as a regular mortal. The only other things we have are Vampire Lord and the Necromage perk, the latter of which I haven't gotten yet.

It annoys me that other Elder Scrolls games could do this so right when Skyrim does it so wrong.

So what do you think? Would you like to see things go back to the way they were? Or do you think the lack of sun damage is a good thing?

[Br3admax]

Two different types of vampires, two different types of strengths and weaknesses. What is this actual vampire, you speak of? I was unaware that our worlds vampires were the only kind. At least they don't sparkle. And how is reduced regeneration of stats being a regular mortal. I think you are being way too harsh on the Volkihar, judging them by the way you want a vampire to be.

[Hissien]

They would be cooler with Sun Damage... I certainly am judging them, since only the society was supposed to be able to walk in sunlight.

[Br3admax]

By whose Lore? As much as I would like to make dragons not have talking for attacking, I'm not going to say they aren't actual dragons.

[Kerr]

The Volkihar sounded pretty badass. Turning into mist. Coming up from under ice covered lakes and dragging their victims down. I don't see how the sun is that much of an issue of them. It makes them a bit weaker. It is a weakness you can easily overcome.

Do you think that having this kind of vampire was really a matter of lore instead of a matter of game design? If it was lore related than the Volkair would have been more like they were in lore. Sanguinare Vampiris exists but I would prefer to see Porphyric Hemophilia in future.

[CBR JGWRR]

Both Skyrim and Oblivion's vampirism disadvantages are easily overcome. In some ways, being a vampire is essential for making an ultimate character in Skyrim...

At least in a game without the unofficial patch.


Sun damage was a minor annoyance in Oblivion for me, it made my dunmeri vampire look like a heavily tanned bosmer from neck up, and ruined how she looked completely. With the no natural regen of Skyrim, it's a bit more annoying, but is much easier to overcome after level 40 restoration.

Neither were problems, just annoyances. On both games my vampires never need to feed and cope just fine. Removing stage 4 hostility was immensely useful, but there were ways around the hostility anyway.

TBH, I wouldn't care either way regarding taking sun damage, since there will always be a way to manage it. Certainly won't stop me running stage 4 vampires around in daylight...

[Mauin]

Necromage doesn't work with the unofficial patches installed, which is extremely irritating. The edited it so that it doesn't affect player Vampires, which it should. The perk is supposed to make all spells more powerful against the undead... And if you're undead, then it should work on you as well. That looked like it was intentional. I don't see why the makers of the unofficial patches removed it.

And no. I don't want sun damage back. I'm with Br3ad here. Why compare two different types of Vampires? If they were all the same, that would make things far less interesting. But I was unhappy with the reduced weaknesses of Dawnguard, so I modded it back. I'm not sure why they would have reduced the weaknesses and strengths anyway.

I just found it funny how everybody in Skyrim makes the vampires seem like such a big deal, when in reality, they were extremely easy to kill. Increasing the strength of their drain spells helped that a bit (the strongest may drain 75 health per second, along with 50 or so points of magicka and stamina). I also increased the weaknesses of the Vampire Lord form significantly, removing stat regeneration in sunlight and upping the weakness to fire to 100%. Among other things.

As for the sun damage, it's still there in Skyrim. Just not in the same form it was in Oblivion. Vampires have reduced stats and no stat regeneration in sunlight. They might not burn, but it still weakens them fairly significantly (level/stage dependent, and also dependent on whether or not you've taken the steps to resisting). I think that's enough.


You can bypass the sun damage in Oblivion by casting a whole ton of restoration spells (if you've got the skill). Burning in the sunlight or not, it's still easy to get around. It doesn't really matter. If it's so easy to get around, I don't see the point of even having it. Gameplay-wise, anyway. It still makes perfect sense within lore.

[p-sto]

Run into a bear in the middle of the day as a level 15 vampire and you'll see how significant an impairment the stat reduction is. Combine that with the lack of regen and I'd say that it's more than enough to create a vampire that is wary of the sunlight. I could really take either sun damage or stat reduction, they each have their own charms.

[Kerr]

A problem with stat reduction is that it will only impact you in combat. You can walk around a city as a vampire at your leisure and you'll see pretty much no negative effects of vampirism. If you did that in Morrowind or Oblivion you would be on fire.

Overall I find that they have reduced the benefits of vampirism and the negatives of vampirism. It is more things having a smaller impacts rather than a larger ones. It makes it feel similar to playing as a regular mortal. The way I see it being a vampire should have a really large impact on your character.

A similar thing happened with Werewolves. The downsides are lessened but so are the benefits. Hell, this happened with the races themselves.

Don't get me wrong, being a vampire isn't too bad and I really like Skyrim. It is my 2nd favourite TES game. It is just that some of the design decisions bug me.

[Mauin]

Sure, you'd be on fire, but if you healed yourself, it wouldn't be a problem. You can walk around in the daylight as a stage four vampire in all games without any problems. If you want it to have such an impact on your character, then have them die instantly the second they go into the sunlight. Never mind the burning; just instantly turn into a pile of ash.


Vampirism will have a large impact on your character depending on how you roleplay it. That sort of thing shouldn't be left up to the game. It falls on the player to decide how much of an impact things have on their character(s). That's how I see this. Vampirism still isn't even close to a regular mortal, even in Skyrim, unless you treat it as such. Vampirism will only be vampirism if you treat it as such.

[urthdigger]

Necromage doesn't work with the unofficial patches installed, which is extremely irritating. The edited it so that it doesn't affect player Vampires, which it should. The perk is supposed to make all spells more powerful against the undead... And if you're undead, then it should work on you as well. That looked like it was intentional. I don't see why the makers of the unofficial patches removed it.

Considering that Restoration seems to be the sort of "holy healing" type of magic, playing out like a cleric would in D&D, plus with Restoration getting a spell specifically to hurt undead in Dawnguard, I believe the reasoning for the perk is to help you combat the undead. Which doesn't really fit in line with how everyone abuses it. The game's easy enough to cheese anyway without it. What's it matter if you're only dealing 2000 damage instead of 4000, you're still one-shotting everything.

[Mauin]

Player Vampires are still undead, therefore necromage should still have an affect on them. That's kinda the whole point of it. If you remove that, you may as well remove the perk entirely. I ain't holy, so there's no bloody way I'm going to use it in a "holy" way. I want my nice little necromage back.

[DikaSmausha]

Two different types of vampires, two different types of strengths and weaknesses.

Bingo.

[Belthazor]

Player Vampires are still undead, therefore necromage should still have an affect on them. That's kinda the whole point of it. If you remove that, you may as well remove the perk entirely. I ain't holy, so there's no bloody way I'm going to use it in a "holy" way. I want my nice little necromage back.

Use the Skyrim necromage counter Fix for Unofficial Skyrim Patch-USKP mod. I don't know if it works with version 1.3.0 and later, though, since that one changes the entire "magic effects" mechanism by making magic effects no longer part of the the restoration school, which means even Fortify Restoration potions can't boost enchanted items anymore. Another useless "fix", since it didn't affect anyone unless they made the decision to use it. It's why I'm still running with version 1.2.7.

Numerous magic effects were assigned to the wrong schools, or inappropriately assigned to one at all, resulting in a number of unexpected and outright wrong results. (Bug #439)

As for the question of Sun Damage or not... I think it's ok the way it is now. The stat reduction and stunted regeneration is severe enough if you don't counter it with enchanted items. And it's not that the bonuses that a vampire gets are that good. There's gotta be a balance.

[Br3admax]

She likes necromage the way it is. The player is undead, so they should be treated as undead.

[Schraiber]

Sun damage is not a huge deal, but I really don't like how Dawnguard made NPCs nonhostile to Stage 4 vampires. That's one of the most fun things about being a vampire in the non-Dawnguard game, imo---realizing you lost track of how much you've fed and sneaking into a town at night to feed without alerting anyone.

[Br3admax]

Two different types of vampires, two different types of strengths and weaknesses.

Bingo.

Same still applies. In my opinion, Volkihar vampires should not be able to hide at all. Only the Order vampires should. But I'll let this pass.

[Archer]

Well, they're not exactly hidden. NPC's can tell something is up with you.

[DarkEastwood]

Although I am against Sun Damage, I do agree that the penalties should be more severe and that Stage 4 Vampirism should instigate people to attack you.

[Hissien]

Sun damage would be nice, but I never go outside as a vampire anyway. I would like more strengths and weaknesses.. Like melee weapon boosts and hand to hand boosts... Possibly extreme sprinting speeds.. But actual needs for blood and increased weakness to sun would be preferred too.

[Br3admax]

Considering that vampires can go almost forever without blood, they can't do that now. Blood only keeps them sane, they don't really need it. And it takes awhile before you really need blood to stay sane.

[Mauin]

Player Vampires are still undead, therefore necromage should still have an affect on them. That's kinda the whole point of it. If you remove that, you may as well remove the perk entirely. I ain't holy, so there's no bloody way I'm going to use it in a "holy" way. I want my nice little necromage back.

Use the Skyrim necromage counter Fix for Unofficial Skyrim Patch-USKP mod. I don't know if it works with version 1.3.0 and later, though, since that one changes the entire "magic effects" mechanism by making magic effects no longer part of the the restoration school, which means even Fortify Restoration potions can't boost enchanted items anymore. Another useless "fix", since it didn't affect anyone unless they made the decision to use it. It's why I'm still running with version 1.2.7.

Numerous magic effects were assigned to the wrong schools, or inappropriately assigned to one at all, resulting in a number of unexpected and outright wrong results. (Bug #439)

Yeah, thanks to the changes to magic effects, removing the edits to Necromage won't do anything. You'd have to remove the edits to magic effects as well. I already removed the edits to Necromage myself. Might look into removing the edits to magic effects as well, or see if I can't find an older version.

If the unofficial patches didn't help with my save bloat issues, I wouldn't have them. Fixing things that aren't broken really annoys me.



I'd also rather Vampires don't have a requirement for blood. They should be able to go a long time without feeding. Honestly, I don't even think they would need blood to say sane. Not directly, anyway. Sort of... I just assumed that it would be the thirst that drives them insane. Which is, I guess, tied to blood. And it would depend on the individual Vampire. Some would likely be able to handle the thirst better than others, and so it would take longer for them to lose their sanity. If at all. Those who are infected and become Vampires against their will seem most likely to go insane. I doubt they would be able to handle it.

On the topic of stage four hostility, I can't say that I miss it. I think removing it was more a matter of convenience than anything. It certainly has become easier to do things without everybody trying to kill me. People still notice that there's something wrong with you, but they don't attack. Though really I think most people should be too afraid to attack. Why would the average town person go charging after a thirsty stage four Vampire? The average person should run and hide. Only the guards, soldiers, and mercenaries should attack. Basically anybody who even stands a chance against a Vampire.

[Ganit]

As many others have mentioned, the vampires of Skyrim are a different strain of the disease than those of Cyrodiil and therefore have different disadvantages and strengths.

Those of you who know the lore of the Volkihar, how close is it to what we see in game? Within reason.

Personally, I'd like to see both werewolves and vampires expanded upon. It feels like a novelty right now and I'd like it to be a change that effects your character's very being. I've played this game with a host of different vampire mods (there aren't really any for werewolves. Were they just not popular?) and I've seen REALLY good things come out of all of them.

These are the things I'd like to see Bethesda incorporate into bloodsuckers in TES VI:

Vampire ranks. Most mods do this--After you've feed on X number of people or enough time passes (sometimes both), you'll become an older and stronger vampire, gaining access to new abilities and sometimes greater weakness as you move further from mortality.

Vampire perks. Not in the way Dawnguard did it. There's a lesser known mod out there called Vampiric Thirst and the author of this mod had a fun concept. As you "level up your vampirism" by both time and necks bitten, you'd gain perks to be put toward one of three trees. Tree one was a warrior tree, it enabled you to do things like feed mid-fight or rip your opponent's heart out. Tree two was related to the ability to mesmerize the living, it allowed you to charm victims into feeding or being a thrall or just to better conceal your true nature (Vampiric Thirst penalties are HARSH). Tree three was a stealth related tree with all that entails.

More creative penalties. Belua Sanguinare Revisited did this well. There were penalties for being too close to shrines of the (9) Divines, for trespassing and if you didn't feed for a long amount of time, you'd start to go insane. Magicka regeneration would be stopped, the screen would shift similar to drug effect mods and so on. This could be fun.

Now, some of what these mods did isn't exactly lore-friendly and I'd like to avoid that, but within lore I'd welcome these changes. I'd also LOVE to see werewolves get something along these lines, even from the modding community. All I can find for werewolves is Tales of Lycanthropy which makes it a communicable disease and adds lunar transformations which is nice, but I want werewolf ranks and such!

By Hircine, someone get on that! Think Brehanin's Better Vampires but furry!

[Mauin]

Is it odd if I prefer Vampires the way Bethesda did them? Everything else just seems so wrong.

See, there's one particular thing with a lot of mods I've seen that makes Vampires stronger as they feed. That just makes no sense to me. I can't really explain why, either. It just doesn't make sense. I guess it's because it seems so backwards and unnatural. Not that Vampires are natural anyway.

I think a lot of the mods that edit Vampires should stay mods, and not be made part of a game. For one thing, it allows for more customization of your experience that way. You aren't forced into one thing, or another. I hate the idea of being extremely confined with the way characters can go, and with a lot of the Vampire mods I've seen, they give me that trapped feeling that wouldn't allow me to develop my characters exactly the way I wanted to. Especially considering I disagree with a lot of the features or changes. I don't mean a minor disagreement, either.

Let's just say that Bethesda's current Vampires give freedom, and freedom is exactly what I want for developing characters. Even if that freedom itself is sometimes restricting.

Sun damage, whatever its form, is alright. So long as it isn't too extreme (like the whole "instantly turning into a pile of ash" thing I mentioned earlier).
Weakness to fire is good (you'd expect the undead to have a weakness to fire).
Resistance to frost, disease, and poison (I don't see how one could poison a Vampire or give them a disease. It's the same general idea for frost resistance) is perfect.
I think silver weapons should do a bit more damage to the undead and werewolves (along with being able to craft and improve them, but that's a different topic).

Aside from a few small and easily correctable things here and there, I'm perfectly happy with Vampires in Skyrim. And Oblivion Vampires after I've tweaked them as well (and found a mod to get rid of that ugly wrinkled appearance at later stages).
As for Werewolves... Eh. They're boring and pretty much useless, in my opinion. All you get is a resistance to disease and the Beast Form power. The only thing useful there is the disease resistance. To me, anyway. I'm sure others would find the melee prowess of the Werewolf useful. I just prefer the Vampire Lord form. Even if it is rather overpowered.


But that's all opinion. I just happen to have rather strong views on what my Vampires should be.

[ZackyZombify]

Nothing wrong with a vampire lover.