NAZI Germany = Alinor?

[Da_BossMaN69]

I was watching a History Channel documentary about said group, when it was over played Skyrim and came to the following conclusion after I had just wiped out a band of Justicar's. I don't like making the Nazi comparison myself, because most of the time when made, the author grasps at straws but here it's almost parallel.

First both rose through the ashes of a previous and great war. Both were ruled in absolute power by a minority group, Nazi's did not come to power unanimously (they're approval rating was actual like 30%).

They both conducted social/political purges once in power to brain wash they're people in only trusting their leader(s?) and it's party.

Both Germany and Alinor are not the responsible people for their respective actions. Germany did not cause WW2 and neither did Alinor cause the Great War. To say so is to throw every one under the Bus. In both cases it was the ruling party's fault, the NAZI's and Thalmor respectively.

Hell both preach racial perfections in their own group and persecute a religious group (Jews and Talos worshipers).

They even both have their own armed paramilitary wing. For the Nazi's it was the SS and the gestapo, the Thalmor have their own in the form of the Justicars.

Not evey German soldier was a true NAZI, similarly not every Aldmeri soldier is a member of the Thalmor.

Lastly, they're both tall, handsome blonde's going around dressed in black executing civilians left and right.

So, thoughts?

[Witchery]

My thoughts: it is fruitless and unnecessary to draw parallels, especially ones like this, between fantasy and the real world. Surely there are similarities (to be honest, you can find similarities between nearly everything), but that doesn't make "Nazi Germany = Aldmeri Dominion." The differences between the two outweigh the similarities. (Dressing in black, being tall & blond, and other comparisons of that nature don't hold any water. Nords are often tall and blond. Necromancers dress in black. Nord necromancers = Nazis? No.) Not everything is an allegory.

... it just ruins the fun of a fantasy for me when people bring horrible things like this into the picture. So the Thalmor are supremacist and ruthless. That doesn't make them Nazis.

Hell both preach racial perfections in their own group and persecute a religious group (Jews and Talos worshipers).

And the religion thing; it is more similar to Roman Catholics during the Protestant Reformation, when Protestants were declared heretics for their beliefs. The two religions, Eight and Nine, are extremely similar -- they simply add a Divine in the opposing group. This is not anything like persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany.

They even both have their own armed paramilitary wing. For the Nazi's it was the SS and the gestapo, the Thalmor have their own in the form of the Justicars.

The Stormcloaks, the Forsworn and the Imperials are armed just as well as the Thalmor. Being armed doesn't make you a Nazi.

Not evey German soldier was a true NAZI, similarly not every Aldmeri soldier is a member of the Thalmor.

Not every Nord is a Stormcloak. Not every Imperial supports the Empire. The list goes on, right?

[GoatLiver]

Not evey German soldier was a true NAZI, similarly not every Aldmeri soldier is a member of the Thalmor.

Not every Nord is a Stormcloak.

But every true Nord is a Stormcloak

Thought I'd get that one in early, but back to the actual topic at hand I think you may have missed some of what the OP actually meant. That may even be intentional because you don't like Nazi Germany and don't want to be reminded of it while you play Skyrim, however I still think the points he made are pretty valid being tall and blonde the weakest of them but still not without merit. The Imperial Army the Forsworn and the Stormcloak army are not at all similar to the Justicars which are not an army, the Justicars are very similar to the SS/Gestapo though.

[Will Zurmacht]

To further the WWII analogy:

Aldmeri Dominion - Third Reich (re-creation of legendary "ethnic" empires)
Initial phase of Great War - Blitzkrieg circumventing Maginot Line (advanced Aldmeri/German tactics, magical technology, etc.)
Battle of the Red Ring - Battle of Stalingrad ("Red" Ring double meaning )
Dominion forces fought to stalemate in Hammerfell - Axis forces in North Africa
Lord Naarifin hung from White-Gold Tower - Mussolini's corpse hung for public display
Northern Legion - Soviets

There might be a comparison between Thalmor racial theology and Nazi racial occultism, but nuance could hinge on exactly how mainstream and thoroughgoing the militant supremacist complex is among average Alinor Altmer. Nazi occultism was more of an inter-party secret handshake, as I understand it. For sheer shrewdness in harnessing existing nationalist/populist sentiment, though, the parallel is clear.

A key difference between the Thalmor and the Nazis, as I've mentioned elsewhere, is the former's lack of organized campaigns of genocide and enslavement, going by the (Imperial) sources we have. Political coups and purges are not genocide as the term is typically used. There is evidence of summary execution of Talos worshippers in Skyrim, but it's not clear to me at least whether these killings are illegal, or sanctioned by the WGC, or illegal but tacitly tolerated by Imperial authorities. The Thalmor don't appear to have a problem with those who swear off Niner theology in favor of Eighter, as Witchery mentioned.

Given the paucity of sources, it's difficult to go far with any of these analogies, particularly ones regarding the cultural and political situation within the Dominion, and within the Thalmor party itself. That said, the evidence as presented in Skyrim gives sufficient grounds for claims of deep similarity between the Thalmor and Nazi political parties. Those claims were made early and often after the game's release.

[Werozzi]

It's actually the first thing i thought off them, mostly by forbidding the worship of an entity and their army's organization, then while playing Diplomatic Immunity, it actually felt like a WWII Nazi embassy where a Jewish clerk helps you infiltrate and steal their intel. Guess that's why it was that much intriguing.

[CBR JGWRR]

Germany did not cause WW2 and neither did Alinor cause the Great War.
So, thoughts?

This bit isn't strictly correct on either point, but I'd go with the rest.

Caution, long... Summary provided.

Hidden:

The causes of WW2 are quite complex - for a start, you could argue for several acceptable starting points for World War 2, the earliest point being the Sino-Japanese conflict in the early 30's, at a push the events of re-armament of the Rheinland, (The point when the british and french should have acted, nipping expansion in the bud then) then the annexation of Austria, then the handing over of the Sudetenland from the Czechs to the Germans, then the most commonly accepted point of the 1st of September 1939 invasion of Poland, and 3rd of September british/french declaration of war, then up to Pearl Harbour, the point where the war truly went global, rather than fairly localised fighting across the globe.

Germany's intentions, at all stages during the 30's in the lead up to war, were careful expansion, based upon the unfairities of the fallout of WW1.
When the Rheinland was remilitarised (something banned at the treaty of Versailles, 1919) the german troops advanced with strict orders to retreat if the french did anything to stop them - of course, the french didn't, and Hitler got the first notions that Britian and France would do nothing to stop him.

Later, during the anschluss with Austria, once again, the British and French did nothing. During the Sudetenland issue, Hitler had his demands handed over on a plate, gaining much of the Czech defences and making stuff for export industry.

By close of play 1938, Hitler genuinely believed that the British and French wouldn't stop him. He was genuinely suprised when they declared war after his invasion of Poland, with Russia.

His intention at that point had been for just a local conflict, not to start a europe wide war, however, it was finally acknowledged appeasement had been an utter failure, and so the british and french declared war, attacking from the west while Poland holds out for rescue. It didn't work like that, as the french did nothing more than wander a few miles into Germany, before their defences, the Maginot Line, was bypassed, and the Germans went WOT for Paris, taking France out the war. What followed next was the Battle of Britain, and the destruction of the bombing, first on the airfields, then on the cities.

This was the point Hitler lost, as he failed to achieve air superiority over England, and hence could not launch Operation Sealion, the plan to conquer the British Isles.

Then Hitler drops his most stupid mistake, of the many mistakes he made, of attacking Russia without having defeated Britain first, putting Germany into a war on two fronts, and hence garanteeing defeat due to factors that have been known since the foundation of the Holy Roman Empire.

Thus begins the struggle of suvival for the east - while the British, French, Low Countries and Spain would have had a tough time, they would at least survive. Not so for the eastern Europeans, who were wiped out in the millions in one of the most famous atrosities known. (Stalin also carried out a similar sort of program, but at least he had the sense not to publicise it, unlike Germany)

Russia held on, only just. Winter, Russia's old ally, rescued them as German troops failed to defeat Russia before the cold sets in. Eventually however, Russia claws back, taking innumerable casulties, famously sending soldiers in with either a gun or bullets such was their lack of resources, and pressing heavily for a second front.

July 1944 - Operation Overlord. The fourth point axis defeat became garanteed (The previous being the "waking of a sleeping giant" by the Japanese - incidentally, both Hitler and Churchill believed that Pearl Harbour Garanteed their victory - Hitler thinking of the Japanese army, and Churchill of the US of A) as allied forces poured in, the Germans failed to stop them.

The end result finished with a bullet, gassing and fire for a newlyweded Hitler, in the face of Russian attacks into Berlin.

Then the Japanese became the focus of remaining war effort, with most notably, the use of nuclear weapons, the first, and hopefully only, use of these weapons in anger, ending the war and saving potentially millions of casualities fighting the Japanese for their remaining holdings, which had steadly been reducing ever since Pearl Harbour.

Note: I missed out the Japanese side of the conflict for brevity...

TL;DR - Hitler was the cause of the war in Europe, and the main reason Germany lost. If they had someone competent they might well have won the war...


Whereas, for the Great War of 4E 170-4E175, the cause lies purely with the Thalmor, and their demands for Hammerfell, disbanding of the Blades and dethroning of Talos. (Should be noted they presented the head of every Blades agent in the Dominion at this point)

It should also be noted that the settlement post war was basically what they asked for to start with...


In summary, Germany wasn't the cause, but it was a cause of the war. But the blame for the Great War only lies with the Altmeri leadership.

[Velvet LeChance]

I really don't think people should start saying "Alinor = Nazi Germany" until we get a chance to see the inner workings of the Thalmor. Who's even at their head ? Is it one person? A Family? A group of democratically elected people?

It should also be noted that the settlement post war was basically what they asked for to start with...

It's different to agree to something in the hope of gaining peace after your country has just been torn apart by war for the last four years than to just hand it over on the basis of a threat.

Look at appeasement, Chamberlain gave into the Nazis demands in the hopes of avoiding war. The Nazis only asked for more and more and it ended in war. Who knows what the Dominion would have asked for next if Mede had followed a similar policy to appeasement. The whole of Hammerfall? Perhaps a part of Cyrodiil itself?

[Br3admax]

I really don't think people should start saying "Alinor = Nazi Germany" until we get a chance to see the inner workings of the Thalmor. Who's even at their head ? Is it one person? A Family? A group of democratically elected people?

Wut? The Nazis were democratically elected too.

Look at appeasement, Chamberlain gave into the Nazis demands in the hopes of avoiding war. The Nazis only asked for more and more and it ended in war. Who knows what the Dominion would have asked for next if Mede had followed a similar policy to appeasement. The whole of Hammerfall? Perhaps a part of Cyrodiil itself?

Also, wut? Mede did eventually give them the same demands they wanted before. I'm not sure what your point is. Just because it followed war doesn't change the fact that they were appeased.

[CBR JGWRR]

I really don't think people should start saying "Alinor = Nazi Germany" until we get a chance to see the inner workings of the Thalmor. Who's even at their head ? Is it one person? A Family? A group of democratically elected people?

Not known at this current time, however we do know that they came to power after claiming to stop the Oblivion Crisis, and that it is a group of Altmeri, Bosmeri and Khajiit representatives. And that not everyone within the Dominion approves of the Thalmor.

It should also be noted that the settlement post war was basically what they asked for to start with...

It's different to agree to something in the hope of gaining peace after your country has just been torn apart by war for the last four years than to just hand it over on the basis of a threat.

Look at appeasement, Chamberlain gave into the Nazis demands in the hopes of avoiding war. The Nazis only asked for more and more and it ended in war. Who knows what the Dominion would have asked for next if Mede had followed a similar policy to appeasement. The whole of Hammerfall? Perhaps a part of Cyrodiil itself?

As said earlier, (Somewhere in that lot ^) what should have happened is France invading the Rheinland when it was remilitarised. Hitler would have then known that he isn't getting what he wants without a fight, and the war would have remained a localised conflict in the far east, largely over oil to feed Japanese dreams of empire.

Neville Chamberlain (british prime Minister, 1937-1940 for those who don't know) in private considered Germany's demands for parts of Czechslovakia and Poland reasonable...

As it happened, at least Titus Mede actually stood up for himself and humanity. But the fact does remain the Thalmor got what they wanted, and that the human empire would not just give up without a fight - much unlike the believer's in appeasement.

[Velvet LeChance]

Wut? The Nazis were democratically elected too.

I never said they weren't. I'm saying we don't know what the eternal make up of the Thalmor. Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state headed by one man (who was, yes democraticly elected). How is Alinor ruled and by whom?

Which CBR just answered.

Also, wut? Mede did eventually give them the same demands they wanted before. I'm not sure what your point is. Just because it followed war doesn't change the fact that they were appeased.

Yes appeased after the war and the Thalmor haven't asked for anything since. If they had been appeased before the war they probably would have continued to ask for more. That was the point I was trying to make.

As to why they gave into the Thalmors demands second time around. The country had been ripped apart by war and their legion was in no shape to continue. They wanted a peace at any price.

What should have happened is France invading the Rheinland when it was remilitarised. Hitler would have then known that he isn't getting what he wants without a fight.

France weren't going to go in without the backing of the British and to my knowledge a lot of the British population was sympathetic to the Germans feeling the treaty of Versailles was too harsh on them. Of course that all changed when the Nazi's started taking places that didn't have large German majorities (The rest of Czechoslovakia).

This forum really does need a world history forum.

[Br3admax]

No we don't. Everybody knows that the world was made by aliens. History Channel told me so.

[CBR JGWRR]

Yes appeased after the war and the Thalmor haven't asked for anything since. If they had been appeased before the war they probably would have continued to ask for more. That was the point I was trying to make.

As to why they gave into the Thalmors demands second time around. The country had been ripped apart by war and their legion was in no shape to continue. They wanted a peace at any price.

Probably? Definitely, 'tis the nature of the beast.

Some would be inclined to argue on the second point, but I'd agree. My intention was to point out that the peace treaty was on the same terms as the original demand, as said, it's something that should be noted.

France weren't going to go in without the backing of the British and to my knowledge a lot of the British population was sympathetic to the Germans feeling the treaty of Versailles was too harsh on them. Of course that all changed when the Nazi's started taking places that didn't have large German majorities (The rest of Czechoslovakia).

This forum really does need a world history forum.

Agree completely on those 3 points. Such is the gift of hindsight, that we can look back and know what should have happened...

If Versailles had been written without so much of Georges Clemenceau's input, (Prime Minister of France, 1917-1920, one of the big three at Versailles) Hitler would never have been able to do what he did.


We really do need a world history sub-section...

[MARS]

The Thalmor are nationalists. That's about it.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Withcery, you missed the point about the paramilitary statement.

Paramilitary means outside of the military, which the S.S. was. The line is very blurry between the two that much can be said, but it basically works like this.

C.I.A./K.G.B. are paramilitary because they don't adhere to a military structure, the same is not true for Spetsnaz/DEVGRU, or any other tier 1 special operation units.

The Thalmor are paramilitary like the S.S. because there is no formal war between those in Alinor or the Empire or any one in Skyrim really. So what they're doing is without a declaration of War.

The fact that Aldmeri soldiers are mentioned as Aldmeri Soldiers, rather than Thalmor shows a split. In Fact when you talk to many people about the Great War, the Thalmor are really only mentioned in the Shadows, even Ulfric simply states the Elven Army or Aldmeri, not simply the 'Thalmor Justicar'. The Justicars are not primary footsoldiers, just as the WAFFEN S.S. or S.S. was.

That is the difference. Stormcloaks are not paramilitary, because they are military, they follow a strict structure and are part of the overarching Stormcloak Army.

Thalmor Justicar's are an enforcement force, I mean thye probably would be sent to war (just as the S.S. was), but they would probably not take orders directly from an Aldmeri General.

[legoless]

The Thalmor are nationalists. That's about it.

It's not that simple. They're expansionist as well as nationalist, which is a bad mix.

[CBR JGWRR]

Umm, Da_BossMan69, what the Thamor are doing is completely legal under the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, it's not a hostile act of war (well... it is, but it isn't. Not in legal terms an act of war...)

In terms of governmental and military operations, Aldmeri command structure is part of the Thalmor. It's just that, as you've already stated, the Thalmor are most well known as the Justiciars, since they are the one's carrying off people in the night for interrogation, but the Thalmor as a whole comprises the entire leadership structure of the Aldmeri Dominion, which at the highest levels is composed of various leaders from within the Summerset Isles, Valenwood and Elsweyr.

As to the distiction between Thalmor and Aldmeri Soldiers, it's mostly covered by the difference in how they are seen from human perspective - even today we know very little about the inner workings of the Dominion, beyond the Thalmor treat their own people even worse than the humans...

[Br3admax]

No they don't. Thalmor do not treat their own people worse then humans. If the Thalmor were allowed to, I'm sure they would ethnically cleanse Cyrodill too.

[CBR JGWRR]

No they don't. Thalmor do not treat their own people worse then humans. If the Thalmor were allowed to, I'm sure they would ethnically cleanse Cyrodill too.

They do, and they would given even half a chance. As I've stated all to often, the Thalmor comprise the greatest threat to all non-altmeri races, and a fair few altmer as well.


While information is quite limited, there are a few NPCs who reference internal (and external) purges of Altmeri and Bosmeri people, who for whatever reason got on the wrong side of the Thalmor. Legate Fasendil, an altmer Imperal Legion Legate stationed in the Rift mentions an incident in Hammerfell, which since became known as the "Night of green fire", where Thalmor forced destroyed an Altmeri refugee district within the city of Sentinel.

There's also Malborn, the wood elf met in the course of the main quest of Skyrim, who's family were killed in one of the purges, although considering the source for that is Delphine, and we all know what she's like...

The Rising Threat series offers details of another major purging at the time the Thalmor came to power, with similarities to Hitler's rise it must be said, and the closing notes point out that the main source for the 4 book series was assasinated.

There are also a few references I remember to entire villages being destroyed overnight, but since I can't remember them right now, I won't include them here.


Considering the worst that happens within the Empire is the occasional nord being dragged off, there is certainly enough evidence to state that the Thalmor treat their own worse than they do humans. The same could also be said of wartime Germany and post war Russia.

[Da_BossMaN69]

I agree with your statement of the Thalmor, but the dissing of Malborn due to relations with Delphine, is no offense stupid.

Look, P was (key word 'was') a very, very bad dude. That's not debatable both parties agree on this. The blades since Day 1 have always been Judicial hard-ons. Justice is blind for a reason. You break the law, face the consequences, even if you're a terminally ill man and needed the drugs but had no money for them so you stole them, your situation becomes less bad on a moral level, but still the same on a legal level.

So P forgiving others (which by the way we have yet to hear their position, if you punch me in the face today, and then tomorrow say you've come to peace with yourself that's all fine and dandy, but you still punched me in the face, you're not forgiven for that until I say so, since it's me you wronged.) does not put him in the right, legally.

[CBR JGWRR]

Missed this at the time, sorry about the week or so gap...


I was dising Delphine, not Malborn. There are other, more substantial, reasons to dis him, like his stupid willingness to try to fight Thalmor soldiers and a troll with his fists for one...

Paarthurnax is a bit special. Tahrodiis Paarthurnax... He doesn't need to forgive anyone but himself, but needs the forgiveness of others.

He was, in essence, the equivalent of a camp commandant in the War - responsible for 10,000s of thousands of human fatalities (the numbers are orders of magnitude out in difference, if it matters. Sadly, at this size they just become statistics...)

Then one day, Kyne persauded him and some other dragons to rebel against Alduin, unslaad hokoron. While it's never stated, the ancient nords must have forgiven Paarthurnax, given he was allowed to live - there are at least 4 centuries between the dragon war and the Greybeards and their protection, likely longer.

Wuth fadonne... The fate of Ambition-Overlord-Cruelty was written in such a way as to inspire just this argument and comparisons, but if the ancient nords could forgive him to the extent of allowing him to live...

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The Thalmor have superficial similarities to the rise of fascism, but superficial only. Their goals and methods are more fantasy universe than social commentary.

[Da_BossMaN69]

We'll that is clear, although don't forget Hitler had a hard-on for the occult.

But the last parallel I'll make and this maybe off topic slightly, but wanted to get you guy's opinion: Are the Thalmor the T.E.S. equivalent of the media 'Nazi'.

I'm not asking if the two organizations parallel each other on methods, and actions, but on audience opinion. I mean in movies/videogames/t.v./etc. when you want a bad guy you make them Nazi's because to the common man, they have no redeemable aspects and killing them by the dozens is seen as moral as killing off animals by the droves (and hell to some the other may seem to be held in higher content than the other).

Basically what I'm asking do you think the Thalmor are simply there to be the bad guy. Personally I say yes, because we've yet to see a single redeeming quality in them.