The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Frogmander »

Marelo wrote:
Frogmander wrote:For crying out loud, they aren't even making first person an option.
Yes, they are. They are currently trying to figure out how to make your arms visible in first-person (currently as in "they told people playing the alpha a few weeks ago this"). Because it plays like Skyrim, you know, left and right hands?

And exploring is a major part of progression. You get quests and stuff by going out and talking to NPCs, as in, you don't know if they have anything to offer you until you're already talking to them and ask (just like, you know, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim; haven't played Arena and Daggerfall so I can't say if they're the same). People playing the alpha had wildly different experiences just because they went in different directions and found different things.

Regarding crime: Again, people who were invited to play the alpha were told that lockpicking is definitely going to be in, so it's not too much of a stretch to think that there might be locks the opening of which would have consequences if caught. But the practicality of a full crime system as seen in the single player games is dubious. MMO designers have to worry about things like economy and how much one person's actions influence another person's experience.

Anyway, here's the main point I'm trying to drive home: Trust the people who have actually played, not the people who are dismissing it based on flawed interpretations of screenshots and old information. If you are one of the people unfairly dismissing it, maybe consider not doing that! (Of course, such a person probably wouldn't think it's unfair, but, ah well.) Have patience. See what information comes out and what the game actually becomes before making a decision on whether it's worth playing.

And, you know, just to tie this back into the topic again, the people who are reporting on the alpha were pretty big TES fans, playing as much or more than most of the people here, I'd wager. One of the ones I listened to, linked from this forum, was a podcast specifically devoted to TES. They went in skeptical, and came out extremely pleased with their experience. It seems to me that they know what the "identity" of TES is as much as the rest of us. They talk about how much TESO feels like a true TES game, in the art, in the gameplay, in the sense of freedom they had. That seems to cover it, I'd say.
Everything I have heard they have said that they aren't going to be doing first person -shrug-, until I see footage or a direct link to them saying it, I am counting it as not having first person.

Not sure what TES podcast you are talking about as there are quite a few. I watch one with ForceSC2 and Jesse Cox.

Crime can easily be put in and still keep the economy stable. Add a black market, sure you may be able to get things cheaper on this black market but it will require connections, be risky, have consequences etc., suddenly all non-criminals can still have a stable economy while thieves have their own market.

Right now there is so little footage that it works both ways, there are people trashing the game based off very little footage and people praising the game and making good assumptions based off footag as well.

It really doesn't have freedom, you are locked to cyrodiil and your factions zones, you can't enter other factions areas, invisible wall and all that. The gameplay looks incredibly floaty, attacking not connecting etc, perhaps that's going to be fixed, I also really hope they don't just have monsters sitting there waiting for you to kill like a normal MMO, I really hope they stick to normal TES where you need to go out hunting for monsters, not just go to designated area A where monster B is waiting unrealistically for a hero to come and slay them for XP. Art is pretty fitting, though some of the models need a serious change, specifically orcs, the beast races could use some work as well.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Xarnac the Conqueror »

There is First Person, but it is half assed. You can't see your hands or weapons for example - it's like the first person view from the old Ghost Recon games.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Pilaf The Defiler »

To be fair to Zenimax, First Person doesn't work nearly as well in an MMO setting. Random enemy respawns and other reasons, etc.
Monsters are bred in labyrinths, labyrinths are bred from walls. There is a reason the Giants choose to remain nomadic rather than follow their shield kin the Nords in building permanent settlements. The Tower is the beginning of all walls.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Demiverse »

^This. At least they're not completely omitting it. That says something I think. It says they're aware that first person is an important TES convention, and are trying to honor that despite working in a vastly different gameplay setting.

Also, "don't knock it til you try it" is going to be my mantra from now on.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Marelo »

Frogmander wrote:you are locked to cyrodiil and your factions zones, you can't enter other factions areas, invisible wall and all that.
This particular aspect of TESO is disappointing, yes. Personally, I would prefer that players of any race or faction be able to meet and either cooperate, fight, or ignore each other, no limits (of course, if they opt into PVP, that is). Maybe an ability to actually join up with the faction military bodies to participate in the faction-competitive PVP. The whole "choose a faction and now you can't talk to two thirds of your fellow players" mechanic frustrated me even when I played WoW.

But it's also still in alpha. These things can change, and I'm not ready to say the game is unplayable or not a true TES game just because there are some things about it that I don't like.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Skrofler »

Marelo wrote:
Frogmander wrote:you are locked to cyrodiil and your factions zones, you can't enter other factions areas, invisible wall and all that.
But it's also still in alpha. These things can change, and I'm not ready to say the game is unplayable or not a true TES game just because there are some things about it that I don't like.
This one can't change before launch. It's a huge thing to change.
I'm hoping faction locked areas will eventually be available as phased high end PvE areas.

I'd like to point out though that ESO still gives you more provinces to explore than any previous non-generic TES ever did. We should be saying; "Hey, we get to explore four provinces. That's great!"; but all I'm hearing are a bunch of cry babies going; "What about the other six? This is an outrage! I DEMAND EVERYTHING!!!!!!11ONE (plus F2P)"
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Chaos the N'wah »

Skrofler wrote: This one can't change before launch. It's a huge thing to change.
I'm hoping faction locked areas will eventually be available as phased high end PvE areas.
Given that quite a bit of land within some of the provinces will be off-limits until further patches/enxpansions (A large portion of Elsweyr, southern portions of Hammerfell, a good portion of inner Black Marsh, etc.)
They could change it in the future (as you put it, pve) under the guise of continuing the war or the above areas locked to all with new enemies rising in those areas
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Avron the S'wit »

It is also important to remember that this is only the game launch. MMOs are of the nature that they are always expanding and developing, so just because something is off limits now doesn't mean it will always be. Otherwise you'd have a very, very dull MMO that would get tiring after a few weeks, which just isn't how these things stay in business. :P
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Demiverse »

Don't know if it's been mentioned on this thread yet, but I just stumbled across this. As far as I know, this is "breaking" news (as of the last few days). Looks like first person is going to be more like what I would call "N64-style" (by this I mean, used mainly for surveying areas, but not practical for gameplay). So I suppose that issue's cleared up a bit.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Avron the S'wit »

I play TES games in third person anyhow, where applicable, so it's no bother to me. I also don't see why anyone would want to play a MMO in first person; there's always so much chaos going on around you, who wouldn't want a nice 360 vantage? :P
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Yaije »

it depends on what's going on around you and the level of detail in the environment.

I can't play ES in 3rd person simply because there are too many things present to really see from an over head view (unless they're super highlighted some how). Granted for fights and combat, the extra visuals around would be beneficial to help avoid area effects and melee attackers.

Overall it greatly depends on how we interact with the world.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Frogmander »

Demiverse wrote:Don't know if it's been mentioned on this thread yet, but I just stumbled across this. As far as I know, this is "breaking" news (as of the last few days). Looks like first person is going to be more like what I would call "N64-style" (by this I mean, used mainly for surveying areas, but not practical for gameplay). So I suppose that issue's cleared up a bit.
Great, so there will also be mobs randomly spawning around you. And as the "in pvp 3rd person is better"...For one, I disagree. I am an avid PvPer and in games that allow it I prefer first person, it's easier to aim and such. Secondly, who cares if it's better? Some spells might be better too so should all spells that are not of maximum efficiency be removed? Should all areas that aren't design around maximum grinding be removed?

I'm honestly convinced this game is just going to be another SWTOR, a MMO promising new things but when asked about anything that the series always has they say it's gone. Heck at least SWTOR had things like companions from the previous KOTOR games. Zenimax is 110% just using the TES IP to sell the game and make a cheap buck.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Demiverse »

Frogmander wrote:Zenimax is 110% just using the TES IP to sell the game and make a cheap buck.
Although I'm inclined to agree with this statement, it doesn't mean the game automatically sucks. The goal of every TES game has been to "make a cheap buck". Yet there's still a chance that you'll end up with a good product regardless. It's still too early to jump to some of the conclusions you've made, even if everything seems to be pointing in a certain direction. Once the game is released, you can trash the hell out of it and back it up with hard evidence, which is better. 8)
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by all_freed »

I wish and hope for the best to Zen. But hopefully they don't become like Blizz and never make WC4, instead just a bunch of expansions.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Marelo »

What, you mean like they never make another game in the main series? That's not going to happen. They're entirely separate teams.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Demiverse »

True, but it's probably safe to say that it will further delay the release of TESVI unfortunately.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Avron the S'wit »

Back in my day we waited 5 years between installments. I don't think a little extended wait is going to hurt. 8) It's nice to revisit games in the series, too, or just go off and play new things. And I doubt that TESO will be static, so with an ever-changing world there's likely to be a lot to stay up for those who want to play it. For those that don't...well, I still can't get out of the Daggerfall starter dungeon. (But one day, I swear!)
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Taters »

Frankly, I can think of no precedent that says there will be a delay at all. Even if there is, it's not likely to be a significant delay, anyway.

Avron's right, too, even if people don't play ESO, they can still replay other games in the series, and maybe even one they've never tried.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Chaos the N'wah »

I can't imagine minor consultations on say design details and lore will take a significant amount of time out of Beth's schedule, Fallout's more of a likely candidate, but people will complain any way.
I await the "Zanimax is the reason for all the bugs in TES VI" or "TES never had bugs before Zenimax" threads in the distant future
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Marelo »

Yeah, separate teams means separate teams. There's no reason for any delay in the main series.

TESVI is a while off because Bethesda is probably working on FO4 first, and that would probably be the case even if there were no such thing as TESO.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Demiverse »

Of course it's all speculation, but it seems to me that a delay would be an obvious choice from a marketing standpoint. And no, I'm not one of those people who like to cry WoW on this thing, because I know Beth will make TES VI eventually. But until then, TESO will provide "free" and valuable R&D. I'm sure there will be a great deal to learn from TESO's successes and/or failures. I'm just thinking Bethesda might want to let TESO test the waters of the new fan pool before really getting to work on VI.

Then again, if we consider that the numbered games have typically been released 4-6 years apart, then I suppose we shouldn't expect VI until at least 2015, perhaps much later.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Marelo »

Like you said, the gap between them is already so big that I wouldn't think it would be any more useful to delay a numbered game for market research purposes.
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Demiverse »

Yeah, I was thinking VI was closer on the horizon for some reason. I guess it seems like Skyrim has been out much longer than it has. :S
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Taters »

Well, Oblivion was out about 5 years before we got Skyrim, so we have a bit of a wait yet, especially if FO4 is on the way(and one can only hope).
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Re: The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

Post by Demiverse »

Here's a breakdown of sales (source: vgchartz.com):

Morrowind (XB/PC): 2.86 million (units)
Oblivion (XB/PS3/PC): 6.86 million
Skyrim (XB/PS3/PC): 14.33 million

Regardless of how exact these figures are, it's clear that Skyrim sets a precedent in sales that far surpasses previous games. Observing this trend, they may wish to release future games more frequently. It's not like they couldn't afford to hire a bigger team, if necessary. But ultimately I'd rather they not rush TESVI, or FO4 for that matter. If they need 5 years, I'll be glad to wait.
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