Redguard and the Thalmor

A place to discuss and ask questions about the fifth part of The Elder Scrolls series and its expansions
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Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by Legacy_Raider »

Hi I'm new here, first post will be about my favourite race the redguards :)

I'm surprised at how few Redguards we see in Skyrim seeing as it's neighbours with Hammerfell. I find the recent history of the Redguard rebellion against Thalmor occupation and its secession from the Empire really fascinating and wish it was fleshed out a bit. I mean one of the only quests that even hints at these events is so ambiguous it may as well be talking about purely fictional events, and even then we aren't told which side of the story is true.

Also found something very interesting in the 1st edition Pocket Guide to the Empire* - on the article about Hammerfell, YR cryptically notes "The most formidable of all the ills that threaten the future of the Empire arises from the presence of the Redguards within its provinces ~"

Amazing foreshadowing or what?

The in-game book 'The Great War' concludes with this:

"Epilogue: Hammerfell Fights On Alone
Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire. In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell. There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed."


I want to use this thread for a place for people to discuss how the Hammerfell rebellion may affect events in Skyrim, e.g. the civil war, relationships between the empire and the thalmor (if the redguards could do it why can't the legion???), and what significance this neighbouring tumultuous country may have in future games or other content.

* For those of you don't know, the Pocket Guide is meant to be a propaganda pamphlet published at the end of the Second Era during the reign of Tiber Septim for the education of the Imperial masses. YR is a mysterious Altmer who has left handwritten notes on the pages of this book to give another less Imperial and more anti-man perspective.
Last edited by Legacy_Raider on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by BetaB17 »

The main reason the empire fell to the thalmor and not hammerfell is because for one, the empire backed down even though it would of been better to fight till they win. They suffered horrible loses, but by allowing the thalmor to gain control, they lost any hope of another fight. They plan on weakening the empire and destroying its unity. Hammerfell is a strong province, and if the empire supported them, they would surely be a great threat to the thalmor. Skyrim however only offers a tactical position on cyrodill, and its fall leaves a drop in its defense. Highrock, hammerfell, and skyrim alone can turn the tide of the war, while black marsh can offer a strong flank upon valenwood. Morrowind is devastated so we can;t expect help on their part though. But back to my point, alone hammerfell can't withstand the thalmor, but its also a big threat to the summerset isles and both they and the nords are wondrous at naval warfare. In truth, skyrim's civil war is similar to hammerfell and their abandonment by the empire. Both can remain strong by leaving the empires hold, but can still join forces to aid in a better cause, that is what the thalmor fear. They want the men to be left without unity, and think the empire is key, but it is proven they will return stronger to fight the common enemy. The empire for now is simply a burden, but to rebuild is the goal

Edit:

Also, I believe another post already talked about the impact on future games, so the setting is most likely either hammerfell or Elsweyr, and would either be during the height of the next war or the very beginning. In truth I don't see the future in lore letting the thalmor to win completely seeing as the empire has always been a foundation, and that the lose for all mankind would mean less overall freedom and possibilities. The thalmor seek to control and oppress, as opposed to govern and unite, that has led to so many falls of real world empires
Last edited by Believe on Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed double post.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by all_freed »

I think the best chance of ending this war is for the Psijic to step in and then disappear again.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by SpikeSpeigel »

Hey OP, excellent first post!
I DO see future in Lore with the Thalmor taking control. Not because I see concrete evidence in Skyrim or current lore.

It's because having the "villian" have the upper hand in the second act is just good storytelling. It's as old as Shakespeare and The Empire Strikes Back.
But, that's pure speculation. Maintaining the Empire will always make a good backdrop, but the evolution, lorewise, of a new ascendant power (Hammerfell) would provide ample opportunity for great future stories. The Empire working from a underdog role would be great, IMO.

Ultimately, Bethy has to write the lore on the Civil War result. If they write that Skyrim failed in it's rebellion and the status quo is maintained...what does that do for future games? Not much,IMO.
If they write that Skyrim is independent it adds to Hammerfell's strength. The chaos throughout Tamriel at that time would be great for the Thalmor and the overall story possibilities.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by Mr.Argonian »

If in TES:VI the Thalmor have become the dominant power, and the crumbling empire is non existant, I think it could make for some powerful storytelling, no matter the province. In Elsweyr we could be rebelling against the Thalmor, in Summerset Isles we could be rebelling against the Thalmor, in Black Marsh we could rebelling against the Thalmor and in Hammerfell we could be rebelling against the Thalmor.

If you haven't caught on I think we will be rebelling against the Thalmor.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by legoless »

Mr.Argonian wrote:If in TES:VI the Thalmor have become the dominant power, and the crumbling empire is non existant, I think it could make for some powerful storytelling, no matter the province. In Elsweyr we could be rebelling against the Thalmor, in Summerset Isles we could be rebelling against the Thalmor, in Black Marsh we could rebelling against the Thalmor and in Hammerfell we could be rebelling against the Thalmor.

If you haven't caught on I think we will be rebelling against the Thalmor.
I think it might happen sooner than you think. Lots of rumours about the fifth Skyrim DLC being a war with the Thalmor.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by AngryNord »

legoless wrote:Lots of rumours about the fifth Skyrim DLC being a war with the Thalmor.
And the fourth?? (AFAIK there's only been three so far...)
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by BetaB17 »

^true, we only have seen 3, and a 4th is rumored. In most cases it wouldn't be a war of itself but more or less a conflict or small skirmish. They put too much focus on the thalmor that it would be hard to cover it all in one dlc, and each are independent. It can always be what hastens the incoming war that is unavoidable, but unlikely the war itself
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by legoless »

AngryNord wrote:
legoless wrote:Lots of rumours about the fifth Skyrim DLC being a war with the Thalmor.
And the fourth?? (AFAIK there's only been three so far...)
Fourth is supposedly set in Hammerfell. All speculation, of course.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by BetaB17 »

Its more likely gonna be set at Stros M'Kai, seeing that there is a red dragon, that never truely died, is there. Its gonna give a parallel feeling to skyrim's civil war, sharing a bitter grudge against the empire's choices. It would be a smart marketing tactic seeing as it may revive an old game
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by legoless »

An old game which is no longer distributed and doesn't actually work on modern platforms. Stros M'Kai would be cool though, rebelling against the Dominion instead of the Empire this time.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by BetaB17 »

True, plus it also offers another point of view other than what we are accustomed to. I already thought of the perfect new shout that would match with the dlc if its there
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by The SheoDovah »

The Redguards did something that even the Nords thought was impossible. They defeated the Dominion's forces but at a huge cost, the south of Hammerfell is uninhabitable. But they did prove that the Dominion can be defeated. I think they may have used their natural enviroment to their advantage. The Dominion probably struggled in the heat as well as having poor knowledge of the land. They most likely used a combonation of stealth attacks and open battles. Their navy may have decimated the Dominion's navy due to the Redguard's love of sailing or barely managed to defeat it.

They caught the Dominion offguard as they didn't believe Hammerfell would continue fighting. The Empire did weaken the Dominion. I suspect had the Dominion attacked them with their full strength, Hammerfell would have lost.

The Redguards want nothing to do with the Empire and will most likely create an alliance with the nords of Skyrim. Due to them being famed warriors. They may convince High Rock to abandon the Empire and join them as well as Morrowind. This would anger the Dominion but due to the dominion still rebuilding their numbers, they can't invade hammerfell. I can see the combined might of Skyrim,Hammerfell,High Rock and what's left of Morrowind invading Cyrodiil and starting the next great war.




I suspect if the next game is set in Valenwood, a group of Alkir warriors are sent to help the rebellion caused by the Hero of Valenwood.

The last thing the dominion wants is for Skyrim and Hammerfell to become allies as well as High Rock and Morrowind as they would be more powerful then the Empire. It would be hard for them to come up with ways to defeat them due to their combined strength and being united. The Dominion will be defeated at some point as their true goal is to destroy mundus.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by BetaB17 »

Morrowind is a force best to avoid, but currently they are weak and would avoid a war at the most, but individuals are not bound to this. They are struggling to rebuild. Black Marsh is now a major power despite only wanting to remain within its natural borders, which fits well with them and their history. I doubt though the alliance would actually invade the empire, but rather support it and occupy it, playing as the key battlefield. The empire would simply dissolve and be reborn. Yes they still want to remain in control, but in dire times they would put aside their pride for survival. Cut the thalmor's hold over the empire, and the match can be set
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by jello »

I personally would like to see dwarves or aeleids in the game as playable characters and NPCs. Discovery of a long lost city or some such.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by BetaB17 »

There only remains one dwarf currently, and I speculate that they would never return to the mortal realm again. As for the Ayleid, most were absorbed into the other mer races, and its rare that an isolated tribe would still exist, but their civilization is long lost. All they could offer now is the secrets in magic they mastered.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by AngryNord »

BetaB17 wrote:Its more likely gonna be set at Stros M'Kai, seeing that there is a red dragon, that never truely died, is there. Its gonna give a parallel feeling to skyrim's civil war, sharing a bitter grudge against the empire's choices. It would be a smart marketing tactic seeing as it may revive an old game
Doesn't sound like such a bad idea, actually.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by BetaB17 »

Check out The next Great War post, everything there already has covered this
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by Legacy_Raider »

Thelastdovah wrote:The Redguards did something that even the Nords thought was impossible. They defeated the Dominion's forces but at a huge cost, the south of Hammerfell is uninhabitable. But they did prove that the Dominion can be defeated. I think they may have used their natural enviroment to their advantage. The Dominion probably struggled in the heat as well as having poor knowledge of the land. They most likely used a combonation of stealth attacks and open battles. Their navy may have decimated the Dominion's navy due to the Redguard's love of sailing or barely managed to defeat it.

They caught the Dominion offguard as they didn't believe Hammerfell would continue fighting. The Empire did weaken the Dominion. I suspect had the Dominion attacked them with their full strength, Hammerfell would have lost.
How do you know this much detail? How come the south of Hammerfell is now uninhabitable, isn't that where many of the big cities like Taneth and the capital are located? I wasn't able to find out much information about this in-game, could you please clarify?

What actually went down between the Redguards and the invading Thalmor?
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by legoless »

Legacy_Raider wrote: How do you know this much detail? How come the south of Hammerfell is now uninhabitable, isn't that where many of the big cities like Taneth and the capital are located? I wasn't able to find out much information about this in-game, could you please clarify?

What actually went down between the Redguards and the invading Thalmor?
Books. This one might be of interest to you.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by The SheoDovah »

I can't believe i forgot that it was mentioned in the Great War Book as i was trying to find the source of it.

I wonder because the Dominon troops suffered from the heat in Hammerfell, if they will freeze to death in Skyrim? As Skyrim is considered to be the most harsh province to live in. As i doubt that elven armour is any good against the cold. Unlike the nords, who would wear armour that they designed to keep warm as well as being very resistant to the cold. Hammerfell was hot but Skyrim is one of the coldest places in Tameriel and i suspect the domion would have trouble on the land and trying to get their navy there.Oh and the dragons would view them as an all you can eat buffet.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by BetaB17 »

Thelastdovah wrote:Oh and the dragons would view them as an all you can eat buffet.
The funny thing is that many of the dragons that would soon yield to the dragonborn and eventually the way of the voice, its not hard to see those wishing to partake in the fight, gaining the nords respect and quelling their own lust for control. Kinda a taste of glory before signing into a life of peace. It would be great if Paarthurnax, through all his meditation, has learned how to resurrect his brothers who rightfully deserve to live, but more or less as a blessing from akatosh that can be stripped away if abused
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by CBR JGWRR »

I would call the coming Second Great War a time of True Need. The Way of the Voice doesn't exclude combat completely don't forget.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by Legacy_Raider »

legoless wrote:
Legacy_Raider wrote: How do you know this much detail? How come the south of Hammerfell is now uninhabitable, isn't that where many of the big cities like Taneth and the capital are located? I wasn't able to find out much information about this in-game, could you please clarify?

What actually went down between the Redguards and the invading Thalmor?
Books. This one might be of interest to you.
Thank you that was exactly the kind of detail I was looking for. Wish I'd come across that book in-game.

"Epilogue: Hammerfell Fights On Alone
Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire. In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell. There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed."


Powerful stuff. It seems that much of the Great War took place up and down the Alik'r desert and it's completely understandable in my opinion why there is now a rift between the Redguards and the Empire. The Empire should not have seceded so much of southern (read: non-desert) Hammerfell to the dominion after the atrocities the Dominion committed during the Great War. At the very least the Empire should have attempted to make amends with the Redguards after the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai, instead of kicking it out just to placate the Thalmor.
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Re: Redguard and the Thalmor

Post by BetaB17 »

CBR JGWRR wrote:The Way of the Voice doesn't exclude combat completely don't forget.
The way of the voice focuses on removing the use of the Thu'm as a weapon and rather a means of worship. Its bent on peace and understanding. Remember the Greybeards tried to avoid outside conflicts however the dragonborn is an exception to the rule. That said it doesn't mean they cannot defend themselves, and even the thalmor rightfully respect these elders
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