The identity of Elder Scrolls and how it relates to ESO

[legoless]

the freedom - play who you want the way you want

exploration - the detail of the land you're in and the entities that populate it

the lore

in that order. Other games do other things better , but TES excels in the above three areas

*cough* TES Travels

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

People bought Arena and Daggerfall knowing little to nothing of the lore or story. Most of which was not even fully realized and retconed with Redguard - Arena itself being re-imagined within its development and made into a RPG, since it was initially a two person fighting game (and if it would have stayed as such, nobody would have cared about the lore). These people bought it for the gameplay. The success of these titles and their gameplay lead to the creation of Morrowind, which saw the first great influx of new gamers to the series (most of which bought it for the gameplay, not lore they didnt even know about). Oblivion came and went bringing more new players to the gameplay. Then Skyrim came out and the second great ES renaissance of new players occurred. New money that was brought in by gameplay, not lore. This is why the ES was a game to begin with and not stories or some other media. So as you can see, the series was founded and is what it is today because of gameplay. Without the gameplay, or the games, nobody would have cared about the lore.

[Marelo]

And as you can see from the overwhelming criticism by fans on the many forums and comment sections over TESO's differences, TESO will probably fail. And for the same reasons they are criticizing it - generic MMO game play with too many missing fundamentals from the series gone. And who could blame them? Certainly not people interested in playing an ES game for the same reasons they played all the others.

Overwhelming criticism from fans who haven't actually played it.

The overwhelming response I've seen from people who've actually played the alpha is that it feels almost exactly like playing an ES game, with a few improvements to make multiplayer work. I've seen nothing but excitement from people with actual experience with the game.

It seems to me that predictions of how it "will probably fail" are more than a little bit early and unfounded.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

And as you can see from the overwhelming criticism by fans on the many forums and comment sections over TESO's differences, TESO will probably fail. And for the same reasons they are criticizing it - generic MMO game play with too many missing fundamentals from the series gone. And who could blame them? Certainly not people interested in playing an ES game for the same reasons they played all the others.

Overwhelming criticism from fans who haven't actually played it.

The overwhelming response I've seen from people who've actually played the alpha is that it feels almost exactly like playing an ES game, with a few improvements to make multiplayer work. I've seen nothing but excitement from people with actual experience with the game.

Don't need to from what they tell us. Anybody that's been following Beth/Zen PR since Arena can read between the lines, or simply read what is plainly written - that TESO is very different from a numbered ES game. All I've heard from Alphas was how bad it is. Which is no surprise to me. We'll see when it releases and inevitably flops.

[Yaije]

to be honest, I don't see much of the "overwhelming criticism" against the game... at least around here unless one of three names appears in the pages

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

to be honest, I don't see much of the "overwhelming criticism" against the game... at least around here unless one of three names appears in the pages

Guess you don't go to many forums/comment sections. There seems to be only a small handful of fan boys (Beth forum) defending this game (because of the overwhelming criticism). In every preview or interview, the comment section is filled with criticism. Zen even released previews solely to address the overwhelming criticism. Before TESO was announced, proposed multiplayer or an MMO was shunned like they were trying to introduce laser rifles to the series (and that's with the proposals basically being a single player ES games just with co-op), and when it was announced it received the same kind of welcome - and only got worse with the more information they released.

But, like I said, we'll see when it releases. I predict a faster fall than Old Republic.

[Demiverse]

@Xarnac

If Elder Scrolls fans didn't care about the lore, this site probably wouldn't exist.

/debate

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

@Xarnac

If Elder Scrolls fans didn't care about the lore, this site probably wouldn't exist.

/debate

I never said they didn't care about the lore. Please read next time.

/you putting words in my mouth and arguing against a straw man you created

[Br3admax]

He said without good gameplay we wouldn't.

Also we are a gameplay, not a lore sight. We are in-game only.

[Demiverse]

the majority of ES players don't even really know anything about the lore

I'm sorry, I should've said know instead of care. Also, this site has tons of Lore articles compiled by the fans. Of course a more comprehensive example would be a site like The Imperial Library. I was just trying to illustrate my point.

Anyway, Xarnac, I really don't feel like arguing about this anymore. I'm going to agree to disagree and leave it at that. My time can be better spent playing ES games.

[Marelo]

Don't need to from what they tell us. Anybody that's been following Beth/Zen PR since Arena can read between the lines, or simply read what is plainly written - that TESO is very different from a numbered ES game. All I've heard from Alphas was how bad it is. Which is no surprise to me. We'll see when it releases and inevitably flops.

So, confirmation bias at work, then. I'm going to go ahead and trust the three people I've heard from who actually played the dang thing and enjoyed it over people who can "read between the lines" in the PR.

I think it's far more likely that the majority of people who will try TESO are just waiting to see what it actually will be like, and the "overwhelming criticism" is just a vocal minority of people who don't like the idea of peanut butter in their chocolate without having ever tried it. It's way too early in development to make a prediction like "it will inevitably flop," especially given the protean nature of MMO development.

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

Don't need to from what they tell us. Anybody that's been following Beth/Zen PR since Arena can read between the lines, or simply read what is plainly written - that TESO is very different from a numbered ES game. All I've heard from Alphas was how bad it is. Which is no surprise to me. We'll see when it releases and inevitably flops.

So, confirmation bias at work, then. I'm going to go ahead and trust the three people I've heard from who actually played the dang thing and enjoyed it over people who can "read between the lines" in the PR.

I think it's far more likely that the majority of people who will try TESO are just waiting to see what it actually will be like, and the "overwhelming criticism" is just a vocal minority of people who don't like the idea of peanut butter in their chocolate without having ever tried it. It's way too early in development to make a prediction like "it will inevitably flop," especially given the protean nature of MMO development.

Nope, just observing the obvious from the various forums and comment sections.

[Musicman247]

Back on topic, please.

And stop trying to one-up each other in the 'being rude' department.

[Frogmander]

To answer your question simply, Elder Scrolls world and lore make Elder Scrolls, not it's crime system or it's pretty houses, sure they add to it, but they do not make it.

See "Freedom", you really don't get the world, and the MMO takes place before the lore.

Honestly, they MMOified it too much. Which is dumb because looking at it from an MMO fans standpoint, there is nothing new. If I was not a TES fan I would just totally ignore this game. 99% of their playerbase is going to be TES fan based, but they cut out most the stuff that makes TES feel like TES. Freedom is all but gone, in more aspects then just exploring. Based on screenshots I believe I saw some sort of zone-gate thing (IE Guild Wars style), which once again majorly cuts from freedom and immersion.

For crying out loud, they aren't even making first person an option.

[Yaije]

Somehow I doubt the reasons for success or failure of an MMO game are relatesd to TES. I never got a look at any of the scrolls up close, so I can't be sure.

M'aiq would probably know. What's he have to say on the subject?

[Xarnac the Conqueror]

+1 to Yaije for levity.

[Skrofler]

Honestly, they MMOified it too much. Which is dumb because looking at it from an MMO fans standpoint, there is nothing new. 99% of their playerbase is going to be TES fan based, but they cut out most the stuff that makes TES feel like TES. Freedom is all but gone, in more aspects then just exploring. Based on screenshots I believe I saw some sort of zone-gate thing (IE Guild Wars style), which once again majorly cuts from freedom and immersion.

Don't you think that statement is a bit hyperbolic? Since you and I both know a lot about the specific plans for ESO we could make a long list of features that deviate from the mainstream of MMORPGs, not necessarily in the name of the feature but in the specifics of their design. It's obviously not going to be 99%. Freedom is obvously not all gone if you listen to the alpha reviews. And you have no idea what that gate was. (Of course they would make it obvious to the player if they were about to enter a private instance. All MMOs have these for reasons that are obvious to anyone but the most obtuse.)

Your rant, though short, comes off as the most exaggerated I've read in a long while. It's the type of bias that comes from people who really don't want an Elder Scrolls MMO at all based on how few established MMO features they are willing to allow. They want ESO to break the mould in impossible new ways and are sad that reality is such a bıtch. Well why not just admit that?

Personally, I'm going to wait until fall before I judge if MMO players thought there was enough "new". From what I know there are lots and lots of news.

[Avron the S'wit]

Also, judging by some reading I've done, I don't think 99% of the fan base will be TES based at all, which is actually sort of nice: fresh breath of air and all of that. There are a lot of new people to the series now coming off the Skyrim high. So that number is ridiculous and very lofty. (I wouldn't want to play with 99% of you and I'm sure the feeling is mutual, too! )

[Yaije]

This is true, going by my inclination to shut off all main chat channels in most games <.<

[Demiverse]

I'd like to echo the above sentiment. It's a common mistake (one that I've certainly been guilty of in the past) to judge people too quickly based on the genre of games they like to play. Of course there's going to be your fair share of "bad eggs", but bad eggs don't discriminate between genres. Point being, I don't think absorbing "the MMO people" into the ES fanbase is necessarily a bad thing.

That only addresses the community piece, though. As others have stated, I think we'll have to let things percolate a while longer before it's safe to pass any kind of major judgement on the actual gamplay of TESO.

[Frogmander]

Honestly, they MMOified it too much. Which is dumb because looking at it from an MMO fans standpoint, there is nothing new. 99% of their playerbase is going to be TES fan based, but they cut out most the stuff that makes TES feel like TES. Freedom is all but gone, in more aspects then just exploring. Based on screenshots I believe I saw some sort of zone-gate thing (IE Guild Wars style), which once again majorly cuts from freedom and immersion.

Don't you think that statement is a bit hyperbolic? Since you and I both know a lot about the specific plans for ESO we could make a long list of features that deviate from the mainstream of MMORPGs, not necessarily in the name of the feature but in the specifics of their design. It's obviously not going to be 99%. Freedom is obvously not all gone if you listen to the alpha reviews. And you have no idea what that gate was. (Of course they would make it obvious to the player if they were about to enter a private instance. All MMOs have these for reasons that are obvious to anyone but the most obtuse.)

Your rant, though short, comes off as the most exaggerated I've read in a long while. It's the type of bias that comes from people who really don't want an Elder Scrolls MMO at all based on how few established MMO features they are willing to allow. They want ESO to break the mould in impossible new ways and are sad that reality is such a bıtch. Well why not just admit that?

Personally, I'm going to wait until fall before I judge if MMO players thought there was enough "new". From what I know there are lots and lots of news.

What have they done new?

Megaserver? Done before, nothing new.

Choices in quests? Done before, nothing new.

Mass PvP? Definitely not new, done before.

A bit of freedom with your class? Done before, not new.

As far as I can see, there is nothing new it brings to the table, and the things it COULD bring that would make it feel like an ES game (Housing, crime, complete freedom in class, first person) they aren't doing, and they wouldn't be new anyway.

I love the idea of an MMO set in TES universe, I'm a big MMO fan and a huge TES fan. Though like I said, too much core ES stuff cut from the game. And, considering it takes place before the lore, we don't even have that deep amazing lore we love. Maybe some basic stuff like geography but even that is pretty changed.

For it to be truly ES like, I would say it at least needs crime, first person, and some form of housing (Even if it's just using a keep in cyrodiil as a base, or a phased house in a town that everyone else has). First person is a big one though, the biggest in my opinion. Not having that is basically ignoring a huge amount of the fanbase.

[Taters]

As far as I can see, there is nothing new it brings to the table, and the things it COULD bring that would make it feel like an ES game (Housing, crime, no classes, first person) they aren't doing, and they wouldn't be new anyway.

How many times must people be reminded there IS first person in ESO? Secondly, there's going to be more than "a bit of freedom" with the classes; by my understanding, we'll have certain skill sets but be free to adapt them to our own weapons style and play style(stealth, tank, caster, etc.). Lastly, while I could see housing implemented relatively painlessly(and who knows, they might add it once the game is up and running and things are smoothed out), how would you institute crime on a practical level?

[Marelo]

For crying out loud, they aren't even making first person an option.

Yes, they are. They are currently trying to figure out how to make your arms visible in first-person (currently as in "they told people playing the alpha a few weeks ago this"). Because it plays like Skyrim, you know, left and right hands?

And exploring is a major part of progression. You get quests and stuff by going out and talking to NPCs, as in, you don't know if they have anything to offer you until you're already talking to them and ask (just like, you know, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim; haven't played Arena and Daggerfall so I can't say if they're the same). People playing the alpha had wildly different experiences just because they went in different directions and found different things.

Regarding crime: Again, people who were invited to play the alpha were told that lockpicking is definitely going to be in, so it's not too much of a stretch to think that there might be locks the opening of which would have consequences if caught. But the practicality of a full crime system as seen in the single player games is dubious. MMO designers have to worry about things like economy and how much one person's actions influence another person's experience.

Anyway, here's the main point I'm trying to drive home: Trust the people who have actually played, not the people who are dismissing it based on flawed interpretations of screenshots and old information. If you are one of the people unfairly dismissing it, maybe consider not doing that! (Of course, such a person probably wouldn't think it's unfair, but, ah well.) Have patience. See what information comes out and what the game actually becomes before making a decision on whether it's worth playing.

And, you know, just to tie this back into the topic again, the people who are reporting on the alpha were pretty big TES fans, playing as much or more than most of the people here, I'd wager. One of the ones I listened to, linked from this forum, was a podcast specifically devoted to TES. They went in skeptical, and came out extremely pleased with their experience. It seems to me that they know what the "identity" of TES is as much as the rest of us. They talk about how much TESO feels like a true TES game, in the art, in the gameplay, in the sense of freedom they had. That seems to cover it, I'd say.

[Skrofler]

As far as I can see, there is nothing new it brings to the table, and the things it COULD bring that would make it feel like an ES game (Housing, crime, complete freedom in class, first person) they aren't doing, and they wouldn't be new anyway.

From that perspective there couldn't possibly be anything new so why complain about it?

I love the idea of an MMO set in TES universe, I'm a big MMO fan and a huge TES fan. Though like I said, too much core ES stuff cut from the game. And, considering it takes place before the lore, we don't even have that deep amazing lore we love. Maybe some basic stuff like geography but even that is pretty changed.

For it to be truly ES like, I would say it at least needs crime, first person, and some form of housing (Even if it's just using a keep in cyrodiil as a base, or a phased house in a town that everyone else has). First person is a big one though, the biggest in my opinion. Not having that is basically ignoring a huge amount of the fanbase.

You have no idea how deep or amazing the lore will be but it's your right to have decided already that you don't love it. Personally I don't think lore started at some arbitrary point in the third era but rather at the dawn of the Et'Ada.

Crime would be meaningless in a non-griefing MMO unless it's the focal point of the whole game. They obviously wouldn't allow criminality between players which leaves us with crime on the environment being either profitable, thus destabilising a crafting economy, or trivial, thus about as meaningful as vanity pets but much more costly to implement. It's a typical feature saved "maybe for a future expansion".

Housing is still a big maybe. It's just definitely not in at launch.

First person is in but without the extra animation. It's yet another thing that would be a juicy feature but right now I'm happy that ZOS is focusing on gameplay, balance and the world and get the blasted game on the shelves already. I could list dozens of things like this that I'd like to have but I wouldn't like ZOS to go bankrupt by making them happen.

[all_freed]

Reading the Last Year of the First Era for the fourth time, and while I can't say how the in-game lore will be exactly lke, the precursor events will give it a breathtaking setting to begin telling untold stories and filling in any blanks. Untapped potential awaits!

Hating/disliking something before you can experience it firsthand is like condemning a thing while it's still gestating within the host. We'll just have to wait, hope, and see. Hope. It's all we ever had since the first TES to V. Give TESO the same chance, I beg all of you.