Do you Pity the Dunmer?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

It's neither wise nor compassionate to condemn or exalt an entire race of people based on the actions of a few, or even the majority. Saying "they" deserved it includes every man, woman and child. Some pretty horrible things have happened in actual human history when you justify bigotry like that. Keep that in mind.

[Br3admax]

Also keep in mind that the topic of this thread is not condeming, it's pity. And most of us do not pity them.

[Durnehviir]

this needs a poll and i think that it realy depends on the time for me

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Also keep in mind that the topic of this thread is not condeming, it's pity. And most of us do not pity them.

They don't exactly deserve either. According to dialogue in Dragonborn their culture has recovered nicely and their grand capital in Blacklight dwarfs the excellency of Mournhold and Ebonheart in the past. I'd say their best years are still ahead of them, as a culture.

[Da_BossMaN69]

It can be agreed though that the Tribunal and it's temple, House Dreth and House Hlaalu had to go. The last might not be as bad as the others, but politically they could never continue to exist without the support of the Empire.

[Kerr]

Daedra are way better than Aedra. Why anyone would worship the Aedra instead of a good Daedra like Azura is beyond me. Unless you don't like having awesome gods.

Turning into Dunmer in the first place is hardly much of a curse so I don't feel sorry about that. Besides almost all Dunmer now were born Dunmer. Would there really be any point in undoing it?

Now thousands getting killed in the Red Year makes me feel bad for them. Becoming poor unemployed refugees in a foreign land where nobody cares about them makes me feel sorry for them. I don't think we should call unemployed refugees 'whiners and slackers.' When it comes to the invasion, well it is a shame when any war happens. Still Slavery is bad so I can certainly understand why it happened (Now I'm thinking of some strange cross of Django Unchained and TES. A story about an Argonian getting revenge on Dunmer slavers, I could see it work.) Slavery should have been outlawed years ago.

Overall I think it would be bad to judge a race as a whole, instead you should judge the people themselves. Hell there was a Dunmer emperor for decades and people seemed to like her.

[all_freed]

Azura is a bit disconcerting... She's up to something. I wanna believe but her daedric nature gives pause.

[Br3admax]

Watch me tear this up like a cheap steak dinner:

Daedra are way better than Aedra. Why anyone would worship the Aedra instead of a good Daedra like Azura is beyond me. Unless you don't like having awesome gods.

Azura is awesome. Awesome enough to kill on her whims. She's a "good" daedra, not a good daedra. She is still evil to most of our morals. The Aedra care about the Mortals; the Daedra care about themselves. Even the Dunmer call her cruel. Selfish [&@%!] is not a god that should be worshiped. No offense to my Dunmer buds. I still like Azura, but if I was in game, I would never worship her.

Turning into Dunmer in the first place is hardly much of a curse so I don't feel sorry about that. Besides almost all Dunmer now were born Dunmer. Would there really be any point in undoing it?

No one said there would be a point. But trust me, the Chimer were none too pleased to be Dunmer before the Tribunal convinced them otherwise.

Now thousands getting killed in the Red Year makes me feel bad for them. Becoming poor unemployed refugees in a foreign land where nobody cares about them makes me feel sorry for them. I don't think we should call unemployed refugees 'whiners and slackers.' When it comes to the invasion, well it is a shame when any war happens. Still Slavery is bad so I can certainly understand why it happened (Now I'm thinking of some strange cross of Django Unchained and TES. A story about an Argonian getting revenge on Dunmer slavers, I could see it work.) Slavery should have been outlawed years ago.

The Red Year was there fault. Next time don't build an entire freakin temple inside an asteroid coming to kill you. The War was there fault, the Argonians deserved there lands back. And as you said slaves. Pity is given, when due. The Dunmer, as a majority here, caused this.

Overall I think it would be bad to judge a race as a whole, instead you should judge the people themselves. Hell there was a Dunmer emperor for decades and people seemed to like her.

Overall, all we must judge the majority. Majority wins in almost any case. Notice how that Dunmer you speak of does not live in Morrowind or even among Dunmer. She left to be an Empress.

[Avron the S'wit]

Remember guys, friendly debates. Save the steak for dinner. (And don't tear it up. That's a waste of a delicious steak!)

Azura is a bit disconcerting... She's up to something. I wanna believe but her daedric nature gives pause.

As it should. The Princes are neither good nor bad. They exist to cause chaos on the mortal plane, and chaos comes in many different shapes and sizes - and in some cases is the end result of a long series of events, as one can see from the Dunmer's case.

[Kerr]

When do the Aedra actually do anything? Rather a god that actively cares about her worshipers than an Aedra who does nothing. I'm not a fool. Azura isn't morally white, nobody is. Cursing all the Chimer was out of line, so was other things she did. But generally speaking she's more good than bad. Just because they aren't Aedra doesn't mean they are evil. Same goes for Daedra worshipers. People in Skyrim complain about not being allowed worship Talos but are perfectly fine with the vigilents chasing out those with other religious views.

The majority of Dunmer aren't rich slave owners or decision makers. You shouldn't judge an entire race based off the actions of some of them. How you think innocent people 'deserved' to die in a volcanic eruption is beyond me. Sure the slavers got what was coming to them but the rest didn't deserve their fates.

[Br3admax]

Azura does not care about her worshipers, Kerr; she cares about being worshiped. She kills people for outsmarting her. She cursed an ENTIRE race(something you want us not to do) for the actions of three people. Three. Her own worshipers call her a "Cruel Mistress." And a god that has to proves they are their is not god at all. My two cents anyway.

[Witchery]

When do the Aedra actually do anything? Rather a god that actively cares about her worshipers than an Aedra who does nothing. I'm not a fool. Azura isn't morally white, nobody is. But generally speaking if you care about her then she'll do the same for you.

The majority of Dunmer aren't rich slave owners or decision makers. You shouldn't judge an entire race based off the actions of some of them. How you think innocent people 'deserved' to die in a volcanic eruption is beyond me.

The Aedra do things. Even if they're just giving out blessing. Anyway, they're more . . behind the scenes, keep the order, reward their followers. (Their priests do receive prophecies and the Aedra do reward their followers. And not to mention they're much more . . . sophisticated than the Daedra, who act petty and childish much of the time, with their rivalries and the like. The Divines are quiet, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.) And the Aedra are the closest thing to morality when it comes to TES religion. The Daedra, especially Azura, are obscure about their motives. . most of them are in the wrong. And Azura may care for her followers, but she doesn't care about those who don't follow her or those that follow other gods. . . and honestly, like all Daedra, she only uses followers that have a purpose. She basically abandoned one of her followers when she fulfilled her duty.

Spoiler:

Aranea

You would never see an Divine do that.

Tbh, no one was really judging or condemning every last Dunmer. . it's just that, there isn't really a reason to feel pity for them.

[Kerr]

I'd say Meridia is the most obscure to be honest. All we know about her is that she hates the undead and the Aedra for some grievance they did to her in the past. Kind of why she supported Umaril the Unfeathered.

Did the Aedra warn people that Red Mountain was going to blow? No, they could have but instead they just let all those people die. They could directly interact with the lives of mortals. Instead they don't interfere because they just don't. I don't see how they can justify it. The Aedra aren't perfect either.

Still I was probably too harsh in saying there is no reason to worship the Aedra. Just I would prefer not to. Anyway we're are getting pretty off topic.

[Br3admax]

Actually, the Aedra are equally selfish. And they are dead. The Daedra aren't. Dead beings can dream, live ones can act.

[GodsBePraised]

Going back to normal, does not make you stronger then before. Duh.

Who says they're going back to normal?

[OblivionDuruza]

Dunmer =/= racist guys, there is a significant difference between xenophobia and racism. As the in-game reactions of NPCs in Morrowind indicates, 1. it's not just Dunmer but most citizens of Vvardenfell which refer to players as Outsiders; and 2. their initial wariness soon becomes warmth and even admiration as you progress through the storyline and earn a reputation, becoming accepted into the society that is the occasionally isolationist isle of Vvardenfell.

To quote several developers, including Todd Howard:

Even in the game Morrowind, visiting as a beast race, you are known as an Imperial citizen and are NOT looked at as a slave or a worthy slave. You are treated as any other Imperial citizen. Argonians and Khajiit alike.

The High Elves confidently consider themselves, with some justice, as the most civilized culture of Tamriel; the common tongue of the Empire, Tamrielic, is based on Altmer speech and writing, and most of the Empire's arts, crafts, and sciences are derived from High Elven traditions.

You're supposed to be an outsider here, so it puts you into that mindset. […] No, he [the PC]'s just not born here. He can be, you know, whatever he wants. Even if you play Dark Elf, you're still not born here. So, they still treat you as an outsider.

[Mefris Elmek]

The Dunmer don't deserve pity,they deserve admiration.Time and time again the Dunmer have been tossed into the fires of Oblivion and every time they're crawled out even more determined then before.They are not racists,"daedra worshippers" or evil by default.Those are not the traits that define the Dunmer,those are traits that can grow in any person of any race.All the other races did something on par or worse then what the Dunmer did but for some reason they still get the "sick dog" treatment.Bah,anyway....

Condemning an entire race for the actions of the few is more akin to the spiteful deities of TES lore and should be beneath you all.

[Br3admax]

Okay, I'm not quite sure where this "condemning" is coming from. Not a single person has condemned anyone. We simply do not pity them.

[Mefris Elmek]

Okay, I'm not quite sure where this "condemning" is coming from. Not a single person has condemned anyone. We simply do not pity them.

"They deserved it",that's where it's coming from.The Chimer didn't choose to become the Dunmer,the Dunmer didn't choose to have a moonlet hover in stasis above an active volcano.Every decision concerning the Dunmer's fate was made for them by the Tribunal,Dagoth Ur,Sul etc.Half a dozen individuals making the wrong decisions doesn't warrant a "They deserved it" in my book.

I agree,the Dunmer don't need or deserve any pity.

[Da_BossMaN69]

Dunmer =/= racist guys, there is a significant difference between xenophobia and racism. As the in-game reactions of NPCs in Morrowind indicates, 1. it's not just Dunmer but most citizens of Vvardenfell which refer to players as Outsiders; and 2. their initial wariness soon becomes warmth and even admiration as you progress through the storyline and earn a reputation, becoming accepted into the society that is the occasionally isolationist isle of Vvardenfell.

The difference is razor thin. One leads to the other eventually, since the borders are already up there.

But slavery was a racism thing, it had to be in order to keep your sanity. The only way they could justify it, and still see themselves as moral, is to believe they're a weaker race, unfit for life outside of it.

They got theirs though from the Argonians, that much can be said.

I don't pity them, but I also don't condemn them. It's Karma really, they got what they deserved in the fullest sense. They deserved the Argonian invasion because they made bad political moves by enslaving an entire race of a rising nation, and by relying on the unreliable.

Now I understand these decisions were made by a few, and so I sympathize with common Dunmer whose only crime was allowing the [&@%!] who ruled over them to continue what they did.

[Dark Spark]

Actually, the Aedra are equally selfish. And they are dead. The Daedra aren't. Dead beings can dream, live ones can act.

Awesome.

The dead can do only but remember. It is for the living to act...

Awesome-er?

[swordsister]

I don't actually pity them. I'd have to care about them if i had to feel pity. They got their share from meddling with the deadra.

[thamoirthegreat]

Hidden:

Okay, I'm not quite sure where this "condemning" is coming from. Not a single person has condemned anyone. We simply do not pity them.

"They deserved it",that's where it's coming from.The Chimer didn't choose to become the Dunmer,the Dunmer didn't choose to have a moonlet hover in stasis above an active volcano.Every decision concerning the Dunmer's fate was made for them by the Tribunal,Dagoth Ur,Sul etc.Half a dozen individuals making the wrong decisions doesn't warrant a "They deserved it" in my book.

I agree,the Dunmer don't need or deserve any pity.

I agree somewhat , I think if we should be condemning anyone we should be condemning " Tribunal,Dagoth Ur,Sul etc". I also believe that the majority of the Dunmer don't need or deserve pity because of their actions, even if they did deserve what happened to them or not. My point is that many people stood by a let terrible things occur. Of course there are exceptions to that, and those exceptions are the ones who deserve any pity.

[BetaB17]

I do in some way feel sorrow for them, but not pity. Their history is filled with distrust and struggles, but all the more they survive. Yes I do dislike their customs that trigger "legal" internal fighting, but it is unfair how they are treated in skyrim when they too are enemies of the Thalmor. As for what became of their lands, part of it is revenge and irony, but as a whole the race is innocent. The incident with Red Mountain erupting can be blamed on Vivic and his fellows, especially since some of the deadra wanted revenge and would refuse aid. As for the argonians, the attack was more or less out of anger and could of been more precise. At the time you could judge them at fault, but in reality it was fair for the years of slavery. Then we have the empire, who basically abandoned everyone and those that were able to function independently held strong. As evidence, when the empire is strong peace is rewarded. So do sum it all up, I do not pity them because I believe in their strength but also because some are due to pass sins. As for racism and mistreatment, I strongly oppose. Though out the series I played as an argonian, but I hold no prejudice against any race, but rather particular customs and more over individuals. I may hate the Thalmor and despise certain High Elves, I do not at all dislike their race as a whole, rather view them with equal respect

[Opi]

Sort of. You know who they remind me of? North Korea. They both have endured very hard times and they both are a very very proud nation/people. As a result of having to endure painful times they are very bitter towards everyone and have kind of an f u attitude. So I do feel bad but then I don't when I think of slavery and what they did to the Nerevarine. No, actually I pity their situation but not so much them. But I still love them, I have always chosen the dunmer since morrowind as my main race all the way through to skyrim.