Lore General Discussion!

[Velothi]

One can wonder if Bethesda just was watching Braveheart when creating the Forsworn.

Because it's like that, except it makes you cringe. Because it's so badly done if it is.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The Reachmen as presented in the game are kind of cartoony and weak in their motivations and presentation, but they do have a pretty cool history that goes back nearly as far as the arrival of humans on Tamriel.

Also, the First PGE badly underestimated them:

Banditry and lawlessness continue to plague the region, and it remains under the direct rule of Provisional Governor Titus Alorius. Travelers are advised to avoid this region until the present disturbances are quelled-- a state of affairs, however, that is likely soon to be rectified. The benefits of membership in the Empire are so patent, and the resistance of the rebellious Reachmen so futile, that it is to be expected that the Western Reach will soon join the rest of High Rock in the new era of peace and prosperity wrought by the tireless efforts of Tiber Septim and his loyal companions. We can only hope that this comes to pass without further useless effusion of blood.

This was written while Tiber Septim was still alive. Apparently all the rebellions within the Reach were going to be utterly crushed within a decade.

Meanwhile, 800 years later...

[all_freed]

I like a mystery, brings out the Scooby Doo in me!

Another quick question seeing as how you are in the mood; we know that other dragonss can take each other's power by absorbing the souls of the slain. Was this a habit among them, like were they constantly at war, or did they only do this during the Dragon Wars in which a few sided with mortals? I'm thinking there must be strict rules amongst the Dov about killing each other - otherwise wouldn't there just be a handful of powerful dragons, fat and bloated on the spirits of the less powerful?

This probably happened more after Alduin's defeat.

Durnehviir states that he had many battles with other Dragons for control of the skies. He personally slew many foes and presumably ate their souls. He began to dabble in Necromancy to find ways to cheat death and strengthen himself, which is when he made the mistake of contacting the Ideal Masters, who trapped him in the Soul Cairn based on a trick.

Interestingly, he states that while the Ideal Masters dominated his mind and body, they could never possess his soul. This implies that only another Dragon can ever own a Dragon soul and perhaps they all eventually go back to Akatosh.

He never states when this happened, but I would assume Alduin would not allow his subordinates to squabble amongst themselves while he was present. I can only assume a power vacuum appeared after he disappeared. The remaining Dovah would have vied for superiority, inadvertently lowering their own numbers, which probably made it even easier for mortals to hunt the rest down later. Sure, they'd be stronger, but there were fewer of them. No calling for backup when you ate the soul of every other Dragon within 100 square miles. Once the Akaviri arrived with their expert dragonslaying techniques the fate of the remaining Dragons was pretty much sealed.

Hi, I haven't played Skyrim yet but I'm pretty curious about the lore. I remember something saying that the Akaviri invaded Tamriel once (maybe twice, sorry, can't remember). My question(s) pertains to the part I highlighted: when did the Akaviri arrive? are they invading Tamriel again after Alduin was defeated or were you just referring to the when Reman was fighting them back? It'd be pretty neat if we finally met some Akaviri in the next game...

[Br3admax]

They came when Reman was emperor. They will most likely not be coming to Tamriel again, for us. This was during the Second Era.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The earliest reports of Akaviri were very early in the First Era. Pirate or scouting vessels along the coasts of Tamriel, harassing small fishing villages and the like. This is mentioned in the First PGE "other places" section near the end. They weren't seen again until much later in the First Era, during Reman Cyrodiil's reign.

There are conflicting reports of just what the nature and goal of their arrival was, but these particular Akaviri warriors appeared to be the Dragonguard from the kingdom of Tsaesci, the "Snake Palace", one of the four main civilizations of Akavir. They cut a path through Skyrim but were stopped at Pale Pass by Reman. It's said that their survivors immediately dropped to their knees and pledged their lives to Reman when he entered the battlefield personally, recognizing him as Dragonborn. He allowed them to live on the condition they would stay in Tamriel and act as advisers, helping him build up his civil and military strength.

Eventually, once Reman's line ended, one of them actually took the throne and acted as Potentate. He was slain by an assassin, and later his son and all his son's heirs were slain too. That ended the Akaviri Potentate era of the early Second Era. A little over a hundred years later another army from Akavir appeared, this time from Kamal - 'Snow Hell'. These snow demons sacked Windhelm and began marching south, but were deterred and so moved East to Morrowind. Near Red Mountain the Kamal were eventually caught between Nord forces including the summoned spirit of Wulfharth, and Dunmer forces led by Almalexia. Their king was slew in personal combat with Almalexia and the Underking and their remaining forces were pushed into the ocean to drown. Only a few escaped to live among the remaining Tsaesci in isolated Akaviri colonies in Tamriel. This was the last time a large force from Akavir tried to invade Tamriel.

The most recent known story of interactions between the two continents was much later in the Third Era, when Uriel Septim V led a massive navy to try to invade Akavir. He planned on annexing Tsaesci first and then the other countries, but his invasion was very poorly planned and he and most of his elite troops were killed. That event took place several hundred years before the events of Skyrim. To my knowledge there have been no recorded Akaviri-Tamriel relations in the years between then and now.


edit:

On Tsaesci and Dragons:

The Tsaesci culture in particular allegedly has a long history with Dragons. "Mysterious Akavir" mentions they either ate or enslaved all the Akaviri Dragon races, and newer sources in Skyrim mention they were renowned Dragon slayers. Several techniques they used were hinted at in Skyrim - battle prayers, spells and poisons specifically attuned to Dragons, special weapons that do extra harm to Dragons, etc. The First PGE even mentions their banner was the Red Dragon, which was later adopted by the Empire, and some of them even rode them as war mounts. They apparently either brought some Dragons with them during their invasion, or were chasing them. The texts conflict. What is known is that the Akaviri Dragonguard eventually morphed into the Blades, and served several functions during their long service to Tamriel. Primarily they protect and guide the Dragonborn, whomever that may be at the time. They also protect Tamriel from her enemies, such as the Aldmeri Dominion. Thirdly, when they can, they hunt down the remaining Dragons, although by the Third Era very few remained alive. Tiber Septim stopped their Dragon slaying ways somewhat because some of his generals were Dragons who pledged their loyalty to him. The fate of most of these Dragons is unknown. It's assumed many were of Akaviri origin. One was killed by the Redguard hero Cyrus during Hammerfell's conflict with Cyrodiil late in the Second Era.

[Velothi]

The Reachmen as presented in the game are kind of cartoony and weak in their motivations and presentation, but they do have a pretty cool history that goes back nearly as far as the arrival of humans on Tamriel.

Also, the First PGE badly underestimated them:

Banditry and lawlessness continue to plague the region, and it remains under the direct rule of Provisional Governor Titus Alorius. Travelers are advised to avoid this region until the present disturbances are quelled-- a state of affairs, however, that is likely soon to be rectified. The benefits of membership in the Empire are so patent, and the resistance of the rebellious Reachmen so futile, that it is to be expected that the Western Reach will soon join the rest of High Rock in the new era of peace and prosperity wrought by the tireless efforts of Tiber Septim and his loyal companions. We can only hope that this comes to pass without further useless effusion of blood.

This was written while Tiber Septim was still alive. Apparently all the rebellions within the Reach were going to be utterly crushed within a decade.

Meanwhile, 800 years later...

..800 years later their the Germanic Tribes as to the Roman Empire, being a great danger to stability.

But, here is a thought.

..The Companions (as far as I know) were not directly involved in the Great War. Why didn't the Jarl of Markarth hire the Companions to take out the Reachmen, or even to come to the aid of the City durin Siege?

I mean the Companions are suppose to be Warriors of Honor, Kodlak is still in charge, Skjor, Farkas Vilkas and so on are still alive and members. Pretty much they could have just gotten two or three and the Reachmen would be finished. Because Werewolves.

Yet he never does. As if there wasn't much activity, and the Siege lasted about a day or two. And the Jarl was too god damn prideful and his son didn't know what to do besides give Ulfric what he wanted.

It also begs the question why the Jarl of Markarth, after the Forsworn Conspiracy, would not hire mercs or the Companions to just eliminate the King in Rags and many Reachbases that are close to the city.

[philfredobob]

but most of the Companions in skyrim said they werent interested in wars.

plus, i believe one of the Harbingers made it so that the companions could not take part in these wars, so that companions would not fight each other on opposing sides of the war.

EDIT: here you go, from the book ''Great Harbingers'' :
Mryfwiil the Withdrawn: Several hundred years after the death of Ysgramor, the Companions as we now know them were soldiers for hire, little better than mercenaries. Our services could be purchased for the fighting of wars, but the commitment to individual honor meant that often Shield-Brothers would be forced to face each other on the field of battle. The bonds of honor which bind the Companions threaten to break, until Mryfwiil, in his wisdom, decreed that we would no longer be party to any war or political conflict of any kind. Because of his steady hand, the Companions today are known as impartial arbiters of honor, in addition to their glories on the field of battle.

[Velothi]

Even if this meant Rebellion, or simply being hired to take out a menace that the Jarl can not do?

Really this is just taking out some bandits who took over a city.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

There are individual quests for the Companions to kill criminals in the Reach. I believe these occasionally include Forsworn war leaders. Like it's written in Great Harbingers, they don't generally get involved in politics. The Reachman rebellion is definitely a political movement.

[Br3admax]

Except the Reachmen kill innocents as well as the Jarls's soldiers.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Except the Reachmen kill innocents as well as the Jarls's soldiers.

And don't innocents sometimes fall prey to Imperials and Stormcloaks? Several NPCs tell tales of soldiers taking advantage of young girls or demanding services for free. There are bad individuals in any army. I wouldn't believe the exaggerated tales of Forsworn barbarity. I'm sure there are a few bad apples but they're an organized army with specific values and goals. It's not like they kill indiscriminately. Their targets serve a purpose. Them mostly being hostile NPCs that attack anything not in their faction has more to do with their programming in Skyrim as a type of bandit than the lore surrounding them or their political ideologies. I'm sure it's actually more nuanced than what we see, especially since in some of their quests they use diplomacy, espionage and other sophisticated tactics.

[Br3admax]

I mean the random corpses that litter their camps. I can honestly say that I have never seen that in a military camp. I'm not talking about game mechanics, I'm talking about bodies being used for who knows what.

[Velothi]

Except the Reachmen kill innocents as well as the Jarls's soldiers.

And don't innocents sometimes fall prey to Imperials and Stormcloaks? Several NPCs tell tales of soldiers taking advantage of young girls or demanding services for free. There are bad individuals in any army. I wouldn't believe the exaggerated tales of Forsworn barbarity. I'm sure there are a few bad apples but they're an organized army with specific values and goals. It's not like they kill indiscriminately. Their targets serve a purpose. Them mostly being hostile NPCs that attack anything not in their faction has more to do with their programming in Skyrim as a type of bandit than the lore surrounding them or their political ideologies. I'm sure it's actually more nuanced than what we see, especially since in some of their quests they use diplomacy, espionage and other sophisticated tactics.

..And whilst it is a political movement, one could say the very same thing for Bandits or the Rouge Wizards.

They want to do something, change or take over something. We're sent in because someone doesn't want that and it really just threatens to destabilize the region. But during this Rebellion, you'd kinda think the whole Nord-Nationalism or even the need of th Hunt to take out the Forsworn or be hired to at least remove some of their bases.

Hell, the honor in this would be protecting the Reach.

[DwemerInSpace]

I personally despise the inclusion of the Reachmen, not because of the concept, but because of the execution.

They are, for all intents and purposes, an occupied indigenous people. A very serious situation that exists in real life. Skyrim also goes out of its way to humanize them and give them a somewhat justifiable reason for their violence (as it's merely in response to violent and genocidal occupation.)
So, why then do they have to be nothing but nameless mooks? Sure, you can help them in one mission, but it changes little. They're also dressed up like some combination of stereotypical Native Americans, rural sub-suharan Africans and Islanders, with just a hint of rural Scotsmen. It's a tasteless stereotype sandwich.

Remember the Ashlanders? And how they did some nasty stuff from time to time, but you come to sympathize with their plights and causes and even join them and become a close ally? Why couldn't we have had that with the Reachmen?
And why couldn't the reachwomen wear more clothes? And why do they have to do all the nasty hagraven necromancy? (That seems a bit too much like Voodoo and Hoodoo, again with the stereotypes!) It doesn't even feel congruent with what we've known of Bretons...

[The SheoDovah]

The Dominion will attack Skyrim at some point but do you think that they will be forced to travel via Pale pass? I think they will as High Rock would most likely hinder them and Cyrodiil would tip off Skyrim. I watched 300 last night and i can easily see Bethesda having TES's version 300 occuring in the Pass.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

New lore suggests Pale Pass has been shut off by a landslide at some point in the Fourth Era, I believe. I don't recall the exact source but it's on UESP and it's sourced last time I check. It's one of the reasons the Stormcloaks had met such little resistance from Imperials prior to Tullius.

[Br3admax]

It's this source.

[Minor Edits]

Well, let's not play favorites.

[Br3admax]

Yeah, good job, Bethesda; I know a dragon showed up, but I doubt that battle or it's Frost Breath cleared Pale Pass.

[Lord Frivolous]

When exactly did Mages Guild dissolve? By the events discussed in Infernal City/Lord Of Souls novels it's successor organizations were already well established, so we may assume Mages Guild disapperared well before that. Can we assume the Champion of Cyrodiil was the last Arch Mage? Must have been lousy administrator, to let things get utterly and completely out of hand.

[KryptonianBlood]

I was unaware that the mages guild had dissolved. I had simply assumed they had no presence in skyrim. It makes since though with the great war and all, people likely are a lot less accepting of magic now. Where is it mentioned in skyrim that they dissolved? I thought I had read all the vanilla skyrim books but I must have missed one.

I find it kind of disappointing really. I don't want another college of winterhold type guild in the next game, I wanna go to different chapters in different cities and such. It adds a nice different vibe to each section, I really love how oblivion handled the guild, replaying it currently actually.

[ZackyZombify]

"After the Oblivion Crisis, the Mages Guild was dissolved due to magic's reputation of having started the Oblivion Crisis. The two splinter organizations were known as the Synod and the College of Whispers." On the Mages Guild lore page.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Yeah...I'm pretty sure the novels don't say that's the reason. Like, at all.

It probably has a lot more to do with the fact that Mede wanted guilds that were loyal to him. For instance, he relied on the Penitus Oculatus and not the Blades. The two novels and the college lectures in Skyrim mention that the Synod and College of Whispers compete for the Emperor's favor. That's probably the way the Medes prefer things.

[Velothi]

Question.

Other than the Crowns being a Nationalist-Independence movement during the Civil War for Hammerfell (And later the Imperial Acquisition of Hammerfell), what really were they? Obviously by their title they are aristocrats, but is that really it? That they were the old rulers of Yokuda?

And what of the forebears? Who, like House Hlaalu, became Imperial-collaborators and decided to openly go against the Crowns to try and take the Throne. ll I've seen is that they were the warriors who conquered Hammerfell, but (once again) is that it? How did they transform from Warrior-caste, to Imperial collaborators, to Merchants who controlled much of the nation?

[Minor Edits]

Hey, people. To solve a category dilemma on the UESP, I started a list of texts which have been mentioned in official Elder Scrolls media, but which have not yet been featured. I think it's still incomplete.

Anyways, I could help in completing it. Feel free to add to it as appropriate if you know more right away, or just let me know here. If you could try to keep an eye out for applicable text names when you're perusing TES books, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!