Lore General Discussion!

[Niid Onikaan]

Gods be Praised, thank you. So is The Arcturian Heresy true then? So if Talos is Shor, when the Greybeards call Dovahkiin "Ysmir" and say "long has the Stormcrown languished with no worthy brow to sit upon" are they saying Dovahkiin is Wulfharth? According to the Heresy Hjalti was called Stormcrown because of the storm cloud that protected him which was Wulfharth.

Enantiomorph. I've seen that word in lore before but what exactly does it mean in this context?

My Stormcloak question was related to Wulfharth's words at The Battle of Red Mountain

"Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?”

I was trying to figure out what Wulfie meant and whether that ancient meaning was still relevant in "modern" Skyrim's Civil War.

Pilaf thank you for clearing that up. I was wondering whether it was "safe" for people to stop believing in Talos despite his bloodline having kept them safe for hundreds of years. The reason why I said I wasn't starting an arguement is because I am trying to discover whether loyalty to the Empire should mean more than loyalty to some warlord who took control. I'm wondering if the Stormcloaks are actually more loyal because they aren't rejecting the OG emperor.

[GodsBePraised]

Gods be Praised, thank you. So is The Arcturian Heresy true then? So if Talos is Shor, when the Greybeards call Dovahkiin "Ysmir" and say "long has the Stormcrown languished with no worthy brow to sit upon" are they saying Dovahkiin is Wulfharth? According to the Heresy Hjalti was called Stormcrown because of the storm cloud that protected him which was Wulfharth.

Enantiomorph. I've seen that word in lore before but what exactly does it mean in this context?

I believe it is true, and I believe that all evidence we have points to it. We don't know for sure if Talos "mantled" Lorkhan, but we do know that Talos is an oversoul of his avatars.

He's probably not Wulfharth, as Wulfharth is Talos.. although I do think the Dragonborn is a Shezzarine. Ysmir is a title that has been given to Wulfharth, Hjalti Early-Beard (Tiber), maybe Pelinal and the Last Dragonborn. Interestingly enough, every person on that list is an avatar of Lorkhan.

Enantiomorph is basically the combination of Rebel, King and Witness.. and how they are essentially interchangeable on the mythic scale. Auriel-Lorkhan-Trinimac -> Septim-Wulfharth-Arctus.

** interesting note. This seems to occur in the Dragonborn DLC, as well as the Civil War in Skyrim. (Tulius-Stormcloak-Dragonborn) (Miraak-Hermaeus Mora-Dragonborn)

[Br3admax]

We do know he has mantled Lorkhan. That is why he is worshiped now instead of Lorkahn. He is the missing god who is no longer missing.

[GodsBePraised]

We do know he has mantled Lorkhan. That is why he is worshiped now instead of Lorkahn. He is the missing god who is no longer missing.

This means Sovngarde is the domain of Talos, then. Interesting to think about. I mean, we know he took his place in the pantheon (Talos' statue depicts this easily enough) and now holds the Mundus together instead of the Heart... I just figured that many people didn't know the true result of mantling. Guess that means Talos is Lorkhan and Lorkhan is Talos.

[Br3admax]

Yeah, even in game, a lot of people know. Someone had to build the statues in your avatar of Talos and a snake.

[GodsBePraised]

Yeah, even in game, a lot of people know. Someone had to build the statues in your avatar of Talos and a snake.

Haha, in game? Perhaps. Not many people seme to truly know who he is. Many in Skyrim venerate him for good reason, but don't seem to know the specific theology of who he is. They seem to still have a distinction between Shor and Talos still. Like you said though, somebody had to build the statue.

[Niid Onikaan]

We do know he has mantled Lorkhan. That is why he is worshiped now instead of Lorkahn. He is the missing god who is no longer missing.

This means Sovngarde is the domain of Talos, then. Interesting to think about. I mean, we know he took his place in the pantheon (Talos' statue depicts this easily enough) and now holds the Mundus together instead of the Heart... I just figured that many people didn't know the true result of mantling. Guess that means Talos is Lorkhan and Lorkhan is Talos.

Is that why the Dragonborn can sit on the throne?

Anyway, thanks all of you for answering my questions

Anybody feel like explaining Wulfharth's statement in Five Songs?

Then Wulfharth said: “Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?” And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.

Edit: I thought of another question I wanted to ask of you Greybeards of Lore. Who was the Hoar Father mentioned in the various word walls dotted around Skyrim?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

It's not really "safe" for worship of Lorkhan/Shezarr/Shor/Talos to completely go away, because as the book "On Gods and Worship" informs us, the belief in a certain deity strengthens or weakens him or her and the sphere he or she influences. Since Shor is Humanity's god and Mundus' god, weakening him to the point of death would leave the world at the mercy of the Elves entirely, and their machinations range from slave master to destroyer of physical reality depending on which faction ended up in charge. Shor's death would mean Auriel's ascension. Horrible plight for humans.

[Br3admax]

As to way above, why would being Talos stop you from giving out pieces of your soul? If anything it makes it more likely.

[GodsBePraised]

Interesting note for the Shezzarine theory -> the skies of Sovngarde are the same as the character skills menu. Thief (Lorkhan), Warrior (Shor), Mage (Shezzar) present in the skies.

Also, I was checking out Sovngarde and interestingly enough.. the banner of Shor's Hall is 3 diamonds (missing heart of the 3 aspects of Lorkhan) and moths.

[Lynx]

Could someone just check if the information in this text is correct, I did some research for a very quick video I was thinking of doing but it was hard to gather much information:

Spoiler:

There are three different ways that Argonians can be named, the first one being a one-word name in Jel. As an example, a name like that could be Ocheeva, Amusei, Gilm and Wujeeta. There is also the hyphenated Argonian names, which consist of two words in Jel, names like this could be: Heem-La, Jee-Tah, Dar-Ma and Er-Teeus. The final form is the Tamrielic names. These names are in some cases direct translations from Jel to Tamrielic, however some Argonians have just been given a Tamrielic name without any consideration of their Argonian name. These names consist of two to five different words, often tied together with hyphens. Names like these could be:
Stands-In-Shallows, Big Head, Tall-Trees-Falling and Morning-Star-Steals-Away-Clouds.

Jel is a very complicated language and consists mostly of hissing and other noises which makes it incredibly hard for the other races to learn, and that is most likely the reason to why some Argonians have Tamrielic names, just because their name in Jel is too hard to pronounce. Argonians get their names during a naming ceremony which takes place when the Argonian child is between six and ten years old. The name they get is depending on their personality, so if an Argonian likes to run fast, he could be named Runs-Like-Wind. An actual example of this can be found on two different places in Morrowind. The first is the Argonian called Hides-His-Eyes. That is his Tamrielic name, however if you've played his quest, you learn that his Argonian name is Haj-Ei. It never says why he's named Hides-His-Eyes but I guess you could speculate that maybe when he was young he was a bit shy and didn't like to make eye contact with people and therefore got the name Hides-His-Eyes. There is also this Argonian here named Gah Julan, which is Jel for "Great Benefit".

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Judging from books, in-game characters and the Keyes novels, that seems to be a fairly good roundup of the available data on Argonian naming conventions.

Edit: I thought of another question I wanted to ask of you Greybeards of Lore. Who was the Hoar Father mentioned in the various word walls dotted around Skyrim?

Apparently a wise sage who dispensed knowledge and training to early Nords. A respected figure. He reminds me of Zurin Arctus, the Imperial Battlemage who wrote "Art of War Magic." The closest comparable figure from early Nordic society that I know of would be Ahzidal, a battlemage who studied Elven magic so he could enchant weapons to use against the Elves. He was an accomplished enchanter and seeker of knowledge, and you can read about him in books added in Dragonborn.

Interestingly, the roles of Thief, Warrior and Mage seem to be fulfilled by early Nordic heroes. If Ysgramor is the Warrior and Ahzidal is the Mage, the Thief could be either Alduin who stole lordship from Akatosh, or Miraak who stole the very souls of his masters. Or they could be two sides of the same coin like Akatosh/Lorkhan.

[GodsBePraised]

I'd guess with most certainty that the Hoar Father is Ysgramor.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I'd guess with most certainty that the Hoar Father is Ysgramor.

There's no certainty involved here at all. Only conjecture. We wouldn't even know Ysgramor was a historical person if not for his presence in Sovngarde. For all we know the Hoar Father may be some ancient sobriquet for Shor, or some earlier hero from Atmora who we don't know anything about. The reason I prefer my Ahzidal theory is that it closely mirrors the role of Zurin Arctus. Ahzidal played a similar role for Ysgramor, so any maxims passed down would be attributed to him. Besides, his ancient pick axe in Dragonborn is called "Hoarfrost."

[Daroska]

I'm going to say 'hoar' perhaps means 'atmora' or 'atmoran' in old atmoran.

Now then! Quest-ion! Who are the most technologically advanced sentient race/species in nirn at the moment?

I've heard it's the sload, since the dwemer should now be extinct or be just about.

[Br3admax]

I'm going to say that Atmora means Atmora since the Ancient Nord language is where that name comes from. That and ancient Aldmeri.

The Dwemer may have 0-1 members left on Nirn. Technology is not important on Nirn, so I don't know if it really goes beyond what is seen in the Empire. Also, since all of these places are connected, they would have the same technology.

[Daroska]

I'm going to say that Atmora means Atmora since the Ancient Nord language is where that name comes from. That and ancient Aldmeri.

The Dwemer may have 0-1 members left on Nirn. Technology is not important on Nirn, so I don't know if it really goes beyond what is seen in the Empire. Also, since all of these places are connected, they would have the same technology.

Never know! Languages change with time. Hoar could be atmora one moment, atmora could be hoar the other. Never do really know.
But I do recall reading somewhere about sload airships, which is why I suspect them to be the pinnacle of technological progression.

Although my mind is screwy and I could just be mistaking some monkey truth for actual lore. Tis' quite possible.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

According to Mysterious Akavir and other sources, At-Mora means Elder-Wood. It's consistent with other words where "Mora" appears. Bal-Mora means "Stone Wood". "Hermaus Mora" means "Woodland Man". These words come from the Ehlnofex, the most ancient known language.

The real world etymology of "Hoar" is roughly "venerable, old, knowledgeable" etc. The words "hoar" and "hoary" appear several times in TES lore, usually in reference to a master or respectable person. Hoar Father basically is the same as saying respected elder or sage.

[GodsBePraised]

Or just grey, white or frosty.

I don't know if Beth even had the concept of Azhidal when they wrote the wordwalls. Ysgramor makes the most obvious sense to me.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Or just grey, white or frosty.

I don't know if Beth even had the concept of Azhidal when they wrote the wordwalls. Ysgramor makes the most obvious sense to me.

Who can tell? Some of the more meta aspects of their lore have been in production journals since 1995-1997ish (?), production of Redguard. Apparently Todd Howard, Kurt Kuhlmann and Michael Kirkbride wrote tons of outlines for thousands of years of possible Tamrielic content, and these very rough outlines are still used as idea source material to this day. I'm sure Ysgramor was part of that because he was mentioned in the First PGE circa 1997 (released 1998, likely finished over a year earlier and edited several times based on snippets I've read). It's harder to pinpoint when the idea of the Hoarfather originated, although that name was NOT first mentioned in Skyrim.

Also, while some of the search results are out of game, the word "hoary" is used lots by devs and ex-devs. Sometimes in reference to Ysgramor but sometimes to completely foreign gods like Magnus or Diagna. It's also used for Ysmir, not Ysgramor. I'm not aware he ever went by that title, but Wulfharth and Talos did. So really, at the end of the day, it MIGHT be Ysgramor, but the evidence that points to him also points to many random people.

[Niid Onikaan]

Thanks Pilaf, Godsbe, Br3ad and Daroska. I'm guessing that as he appears on the Word Walls he'd be a pretty top ranking member of the Dragon Cult so Ahzidal and Ysgramor are great contenders, although I confess my ignorance of the former as I only know what the dark elf told me at the begining of Unearted quest.

Is it possible the Hoar Father may actually be another name for a dragon? Or Akatosh? Apart from the World-Eater is there any other examples of dragons with titles?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I think it's far more likely the Hoar Father would be Shor than Alduin if he's a Divine. Even under the Dragon Cult, worship of Shor and other gods was tolerated. In fact, murals to other animal priests exist alongside Dragon Priest murals in ancient tombs. Also, since the Nords of the Daggerfall time era still said "By the Hoar Father!" late into the Third Age, I doubt it's a reference to Alduin. He's seen as more of a devil than savior in Nord religion these days. Of course, it could be Stuhn, Tsun, Jhunal or any number of ancient gods or culture heroes as well. There's no telling. I'd prefer to think of him as a mortal Nord. Some influential leader or adviser. We just don't know anything about him other than that.

[Niid Onikaan]

I like a mystery, brings out the Scooby Doo in me!

Another quick question seeing as how you are in the mood; we know that other dragonss can take each other's power by absorbing the souls of the slain. Was this a habit among them, like were they constantly at war, or did they only do this during the Dragon Wars in which a few sided with mortals? I'm thinking there must be strict rules amongst the Dov about killing each other - otherwise wouldn't there just be a handful of powerful dragons, fat and bloated on the spirits of the less powerful?

[Br3admax]

Just as dragons like to dominate mortals, so too do they want to dominate each other. Dragons fought each other for control of certain areas. They most likely only lower their numbers when fighting a rival.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I like a mystery, brings out the Scooby Doo in me!

Another quick question seeing as how you are in the mood; we know that other dragonss can take each other's power by absorbing the souls of the slain. Was this a habit among them, like were they constantly at war, or did they only do this during the Dragon Wars in which a few sided with mortals? I'm thinking there must be strict rules amongst the Dov about killing each other - otherwise wouldn't there just be a handful of powerful dragons, fat and bloated on the spirits of the less powerful?

This probably happened more after Alduin's defeat.

Durnehviir states that he had many battles with other Dragons for control of the skies. He personally slew many foes and presumably ate their souls. He began to dabble in Necromancy to find ways to cheat death and strengthen himself, which is when he made the mistake of contacting the Ideal Masters, who trapped him in the Soul Cairn based on a trick.

Interestingly, he states that while the Ideal Masters dominated his mind and body, they could never possess his soul. This implies that only another Dragon can ever own a Dragon soul and perhaps they all eventually go back to Akatosh.

He never states when this happened, but I would assume Alduin would not allow his subordinates to squabble amongst themselves while he was present. I can only assume a power vacuum appeared after he disappeared. The remaining Dovah would have vied for superiority, inadvertently lowering their own numbers, which probably made it even easier for mortals to hunt the rest down later. Sure, they'd be stronger, but there were fewer of them. No calling for backup when you ate the soul of every other Dragon within 100 square miles. Once the Akaviri arrived with their expert dragonslaying techniques the fate of the remaining Dragons was pretty much sealed.