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Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:18 am
by ddc
In the few parts of Morrowind that remain inhabitable, would slavery still exist? If so, where and to what extent?
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:45 am
by legoless
It was largely abolished by the time of Oblivion I think. The Argonian invasion probably ended any remaining slavers. Maybe there are pockets where it's still practiced (on goblins perhaps), but by the Fourth Era slavery seems to be a thing of the past in Morrowind.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:54 am
by ddc
Ah, good to know. There have been so many changes to the Elder Scrolls universe since Morrowind they can be difficult to keep track of. Thanks for clearing that up.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:06 am
by Pilaf The Defiler
Helseth abolished slavery shortly before the events of Oblivion. On the other hand, after Red Year, House Hlaalu was disgraced and exiled. Helseth was a Hlaalu, and an Imperial puppet king, so his reforms may have been overturned later.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:44 am
by Lavellan
Considering the state Morrowind was in during Skyrim, I doubt dunmeri slave owners would have a very good grip on slaves. Most slaves where Khajiit and Argonian, and during the events between Oblivion-Skyrim, Argonians invaded Morrowind and claimed parts of it. Much of Vvardenfell was destroyed during the Red Year, as well. If anyone has slaves still, it would probably be the Telvanni, but even then, it sounds doubtful (ie: the journal Brand-Shei asks you to get).
"4 E 6 Second Seed, Middas
Is this the end of all things? Are we to die by the cruel barbed blades of the Argonian invasion force? After surviving the Red Year, struggling to dig from the ash and the rubble, and burying the thousands that died, is this to be our epitaph? The irony of our demise glows brighter than Masser on the summer solstice. We brought this upon ourselves; the Argonians simply answering a rallying cry incited by a millennia of suffrage [sic] imposed by my kind. And so here I sit, in the crumbling basement of our family home while a thousand thousand booted feet echo above me and the screams of the dying find their way to my ears. So falls House Telvanni.
But then I look into the eyes of this child, this blessing given to us the very year that Vvardenfell spouted its fiery death across the land; this gift I hold my grasp. Is it too much to wish he be given the chance to survive and keep our memories alive? This small boy born in the midst of chaos and destruction must carry on. If nothing else, as a reminder to other dunmer that the Telvanni were once a proud and noble people.
Since the death of my wife, I haven't been able to bring myself to give my son a proper name. It never felt right without her. But my own life reaches its final hours as the luxury of time is [sic] escapes my embrace. I name him now: Brandyl, son of Lymdrenn and sole living heir to House Telvanni. I will wrap him in his t'lonya, his birthing swaddle and leave his fate to Azura's will.
Live with virtue and pride, sera."
Now, we know House Telvanni hasn't fallen, despite Brand-Shei's fathers belief that it would fall soon - Brelyna Maryon is a member of Telvanni, Neloth is also still a member and eventually dubs the Dragonborn as a member as well - but we can probably assume that Telvanni lost a lot of power and influence; it seems that being a member/related to House Telvanni is more of a vanity/prestige thing rather than the power/influence they held during the events of Morrowind. After all, if Brelyna's family - Telvanni members - sent their daughter to the College of Winterhold all the way in Skyrim (where racism and anti-magic sentiments are still very much alive, along with the poor state of Winterhold has a city in of itself), that might be an indicator that things aren't the best for Telvanni mages raising their daughter.
So between Helseth Hlaalu abolishing slavery, the Oblivion Crisis, the Red Year decimating much of Vvardenfell, invasion from Black Marsh (which I believe also claimed parts of southern Morrowind), I doubt slavery is practiced in Morrowind - if it was, they could probably face further attacks by Black Marsh, which (from the sounds of it) is doing quite well for itself. Hlaalu and Telvanni had the biggest slave holdings in Morrowind, and Hlaalu was exiled after the Oblivion Crisis. Telvanni doesn't seem to be in the best shape, so those are all things to take into consideration. If Telvanni and Redoran (the current dominant political force in Morrowind) had slaves I'd expect to hear something about it in Solstheim, too.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:52 pm
by Marisa Kirisame
Remember that most of Telvanni are composed of solitary researchers that don't really care about anything besides their research. Many of them might have survived, it's just that not many are interested in running the Great House business - hence the thought of the fall. Same may be the reason Brelyna is sent to Skyrim - there may be too little old school mages willing to teach her.
And those old style solitary dudes and gals don't care about slavery-related laws. They get slaves if they need them and don't get them if they don't need them.
Also, whatever the official slavery status is, the black market for slaves will always exist there.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:09 pm
by Lavellan
Marisa Kirisame wrote:Remember that most of Telvanni are composed of solitary researchers that don't really care about anything besides their research. Many of them might have survived, it's just that not many are interested in running the Great House business - hence the thought of the fall. Same may be the reason Brelyna is sent to Skyrim - there may be too little old school mages willing to teach her.
And those old style solitary dudes and gals don't care about slavery-related laws. They get slaves if they need them and don't get them if they don't need them.
Also, whatever the official slavery status is, the black market for slaves will always exist there.
If they aren't willing to take on apprentices and teach though, solitary or not, I doubt that really bodes well for the Telvanni - and Skyrim is 200 years after Oblivion, and while there is some lore that suggests that dunmer can have a "1,000 year lifespan" like other elves (in regards mostly to altmer, I think), the average dunmer lifespan is probably a lot shorter to the harsh environment, dunmer society in general, etc... So I'm not sure how many of the "old style solitary" Telvanni mages exist that actually lived during slavery in Morrowind are still around between all the recent events. A lot of people will travel far to accompany an established person in a certain trade (Imperial guy for the Altmer alchemist in Windhelm, redguard that traveled all the way for a fletcher in Solitude, Neloth's two eager apprentices), so that might be something also up for consideration - moreso since Brelyna mentions that the College is on of the "last few real places to learn magic" and that she believed her parents reserved her a spot when she was born... Which might speak greatly for the College, poorly for magic education within the Telvanni, or both.
I guess the black market part could work still, though - however, with how cheap servant labor probably is in Morrowind/the surrounding areas, it would probably be cheaper to have sharecroppers or indentured servitude than
outright slaves. But if they're going to consider black market slavery for the entire nation, slavery is still very much alive in even real-life countries like America... So I guess it also comes down to what extent of slavery is going on to consider there "being" slavery in Morrowind (very rare, limited, uncommon, common...)
Neloth also treated his first apprentice's life and death very nonchalantly, and more upset that it delayed his research - I imagine if slavery was still very active, it would probably be easy for Neloth to acquire slaves for his heart stone project, without delaying it too much, too - though there doesn't seem to be an indication that he ever did so.
I guess when you get down to it, though, there really isn't enough information to come to a definitive answer from around the time of Skyrim.

Maybe the next TES game will shed more light on it, though - but I guess that would also be largely dependent on which region it takes place in.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:59 pm
by Marisa Kirisame
I'm still willing to see how Divayth and Yagrum would go and show all those fellows that the old school still lives!
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:37 am
by Pilaf The Defiler
Neloth seemed very much interested in reviving House Telvanni as a political entity, with himself as the Archmagister. Of course, any other surviving Master Wizards would feel it rightly belongs to them. I suspect some conflict is on the way.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:43 am
by BetaB17
I think one thing that gets overlooked is that some individuals, whether old or new, will still make use of slavery on other races even if its illegal. Even duting the events of Morrowind we see illegal trafficking or rather 'reclaiming lost goods' on the island Solstheim, an active territory of the Empire itself.

There is no way that would be as tolerated as raid parties into Black Marsh or hunting down runaway slaves within their own province.. but that just goes to show the moral grounds for those making a lively business off that
Quite honestly, if somebody still wanted to make use of slaves within Morrowind.. the law is the least of their barrier >_> loss of habitable lands or furtile regions due to two calamities, the potential backlash, and the fact that a hard lesson was learned... I really don't think we have to worry about old habits lasting long
On the topic of the Telvanni. I know the Masters are more than ancient n thus accustomed to traditions, but quite frankly aside from cheap labor n farming, the loss of slaves I dont think would really impact them as much. In my opinion, it was always more of a case that they could have slaves than anything else. This House has always protected its own self interests n gain, and many of it's higher ranked members are more than powerful, influential, n wealthy to the point where it was little more than an extra luxury. They can afford to adapt on this issue. I really cant say the same to other Houses tho
I mean seriously, when it comes to those that make mundane tasks negligible n cared for by others, it really doesnt matter if their slave or not, or even if your a simple apprentice, they can treat you as poorily with little difference >_> After all, they earned the right to feel superior to most folk... especially when some within the House predate the Tribunal <_< Still when it comes to their demand for loyal servants.. the prospect of serving beneath someone so powerful, influential, knowledgable, and successful.. there is by no means a short supply of volunteers, heck it almost makes dealing with that ill behavior worth it... almost.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:00 am
by Marisa Kirisame
Pilaf The Defiler wrote:...any other surviving Master Wizards...
If they even care about the House business.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:29 pm
by Pilaf The Defiler
Marisa Kirisame wrote:Pilaf The Defiler wrote:...any other surviving Master Wizards...
If they even care about the House business.
They don't care about most of the business, but they get very offended when another Wizard implies he's their master, or a better Wizard than them. Those are fighting words for a Telvanni.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:21 pm
by Marisa Kirisame
Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Marisa Kirisame wrote:Pilaf The Defiler wrote:...any other surviving Master Wizards...
If they even care about the House business.
They don't care about most of the business, but they get very offended when another Wizard implies he's their master, or a better Wizard than them. Those are fighting words for a Telvanni.
Remember that secluded Telvanni generally don't care about anything in the outer world beside their tower and places and items relevant to their research. Not even what other Telvanni say to other Telvanni, so while this qualifies as offending words to provoke those guys to fight, the one who implies that he's their master or a better wizard must basically come to their tower and yell this at their face. Or send tons of letters of some kind. If all he does is telling the people around him that he rules the Telvanni, they won't even care (if he starts barking orders though, they would probably ignore them or be offended).
Just remember how in MW no one even cares if you get expelled from Telvanni. Or if you announce yourself as Archmagister, only the current Archmagister would have something against it (for obvious reasons).
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:45 am
by Pilaf The Defiler
The fact of the matter is, the Master of a Great House has to be agreed upon by all other top ranking members, similar to how a Hortator is chosen. The Telvanni are tougher nuts to crack than even the other House masters. Neloth would have to make pretty strong arguments, especially against Dratha if she's still alive. Fyr isn't a council member, and I doubt he's interested in Telvanni politics at all, so he's a non-factor, but Dratha, Therana, and Aryon might have a hard time accepting Neloth's leadership style, if they're still alive.
edit: Forgot about Baladas. He joins the Council during the events of TES III.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:30 am
by legoless
Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Neloth would have to make pretty strong arguments, especially against Dratha if she's still alive.
Dratha was already literal undead in Morrowind, and dangerously eccentric. Kinda don't see her surviving into the Fourth Era.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:12 pm
by Marisa Kirisame
I guess Therana doesn't care anything except eggs anymore. Baladas is much like Fyr despite agreeing to join the Council; however, the problem might be that many of those interested members such as Dratha, Aryon or Therana might either not make it or turn into non-caring far-tower wizards like Fyr, Baladas and most other less-powerful Telvanni wizards scattered across the land.
Remember that Dratha begins to become marasmatic by the time of TES III. Maybe she fled somewhere to swamps or forests to lead an amason tribe of khajiits or argonians. That could make a great mod plot.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:58 pm
by Kerr
It wouldn't be legal anymore but that doesn't mean people no longer practice it. Telvanni high wizards aren't going to care if slavery is illegal. Like in the real world there are more slaves than ever.
And even if slavery is illegal, indentured servitude probably isn't.
Re: Slavery in Morrowind
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:22 am
by Pilaf The Defiler
Indentured Servitude is basically Imperial citizenship, according to some. Those people are malcontents who belong in the gallows, of course, but there's plenty of them.