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Hey everyone. I'm a new member to these forums, although I've had a look at a few topics here in the past - and I figured it might be right to ask something that I've been curious about for some time. I even posted on another forum about this very topic, it's always good to get as many perspectives as one can.

So, before I start, I know this may sound like a rather odd thing to ask but this is something that has bothered me - and for those who play TESO and have Altmer, I'm sure there are those bothered by it as well or have been bothered by it before - for awhile now. My question is this: can a Altmer of purely Altmeri ancestry - meaning no Bosmer, Dunmer, Orsimer, or Human ancestry anywhere in their bloodline - have dark hair colors? Is it rare in pure-blooded Altmer yet still possible? Or are pure-bloods only capable of having fairer colors as Altmer in general are typically depicted as of late?

As for my gatherings about this, I had a look through each game to see how the Altmer are depicted. Arena shows them as capable of having black, gray, dark red, and (for men at least) dark brown hair with streaks of gray, and having dark gold to bronze-like skin. Then Daggerfall depicts them with a more fair complexion and their hair being red-orange, black, white, brown, and even a dark brown (or a dark red-brown, it's hard to tell really). Then there's Battlespire, which depicted both male and female Altmer with many black and dark brown hair colors and some of their more commonly seen white and blonde hair colors. Now we look at Morrowind - where a change in how Altmer are depicted begins. The Altmer shown - both the Nerevarine (if one chooses Altmer as there race, mind you), and those who moved to Morrowind or were based there if they're part of the Imperial Legion - are depicted with blonde, white, and even regular brown hair - the dark shades no longer present.

Oblivion is next - which takes place at the closing of the Third Era in the melting pot of Tamriel known as Cyrodiil. Many Altmer, once again, are shown with fair hair colors, yet some such as Caranya, Areldur, Hlidara Mothril, and Henantier are depicted with black and dark brown hair (though I refuse to count Mankar and his children). Then comes Skyrim and the Fourth Era. Altmer in the land of the Nords all seem to have only white, flaxen, blonde, auburn, and gray hair - not a single one seems to have brown, dark brown, dark red, or even black hair. The Thalmor are especially noticeable of this as both the common soldiers and high ranking members such as Elenwen and Ondolemar are shown to have blonde and white hair (whether this is to give a comparison to the Nazis of the real-world who were obsessed with 'racial purity' as some like to compare to the Thalmor to is intention or otherwise, who can say). Perhaps the reason the Altmer shown in Skyrim - both Thalmor-aligned and those unaligned with them - lack dark hair colors could be because those darker shades aren't as dominant in the genes of Altmer from Summerset/Alinor (assuming we can apply real-world genetics to Tamriel and racial phylogeny) - which could also be applied to the Altmer depicted in Morrowind. Although in the case of the Thalmor, it could very well be there way of promoting the 'unified ideal Mer' image to the Nords by sending 'poster Mer' - regarding their soldiers, high-ranking Justiciars, and representatives.

Finally, we look to TESO and the Second Era. Many Altmer of the Dominion sport white, blonde, gray, auburn, flaxen, and regular brown hair - however, there are a number in the Dominion who are shown to have dark brown, black-gray, and even black hair. Aldarch Colaste, Atalmo, Cannonreeve Valano, Coinclerk Arawe, Ocando, Ondendil, Palomir, Sanessalmo, Telenger, and Varustante. These Altmer are almost certainly pure-blooded Altmer. Some of these individuals are even members of the Veiled Heritance - Altmeri nationalist who oppose the Ayrenn's decision to align the Altmer with the Bosmer and Khajiit. Yet Altmer players have, as the darkest hair color they can obtain, a regular shade of brown - perhaps contributing to the idea that darker hair colors are rare yet possible and by not including these hair colors (though I'm still opposed to it) it keeps those hair colors rare and avoids a majority having black hair. I know, however, that Zenimax has claimed the choice of hair and eye color for each race Online is 'going by the lore' - however this is something I don't fully buy into, looking at the evidence presented, as well as the eye color options of Dunmer...

To summarize I suppose, Arena and Daggerfall (although they never specify if the heroes - whatever there race may be - are from Cyrodiil or their own homeland) has Altmer depicted with darker hair colors. Then Morrowind first depicts the Altmer with lighter hair colors and seems to ignore the previous black, dark brown, and dark red hair colors. Oblivion has a few Altmer with those hair colors return - though whether those dark-haired individuals have a mixed ancestry along the lines or if they are purely Altmeri stock or hail from the Isles is uncertain. Skyrim seems to show Altmer with only blonde, white, and gray hair colors - with only one female preset being shown to have dark hair, the Thalmor being especially guilty of this with mainly white and blonde hair colors for both their soldiers and high-ranking representatives. And finally, Online lacks these darker colors for player-created Altmer, yet there are Altmer NPCs that are part of the Dominion as well as members of the Veiled Heritance (nationalists who very likely may be against interbreeding with non-Altmer) have dark hair colors as well.

Anyways... If you managed to get through all of my possible madness (blame Sheogorath or obsession...), I thank you for bearing with me. And please, share your thoughts and your opinions on this matter - confirmation of pure-blooded Altmer being able to have dark hair or not will be reassuring in one way or another.

Links to a few of the named dark haired from ESO's Dominion side. Other dark haired Altmer have been found, including those that are not affiliated with the Dominion or Heritance, as well as all dark haired Altmer in Oblivion. I can post links for those other Altmer NPCs if needed or at least mention their names.
[uesp=] http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Aldarch_Colaste http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Atalmo http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Canonreeve_Valano http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Coinclerk_Arawe http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ocando http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ondendil http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Palomir http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Sanessalmo http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Telenger_the_Artificer http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Varustante [/uesp]

Even if the pure blood has all pigment genes on recessive, and if recessive is whitey colors (lack of pigment), it would be possible if a random mutation procs for dark pigment (very low chance).

Marisa Kirisame wrote:Even if the pure blood has all pigment genes on recessive, and if recessive is whitey colors (lack of pigment), it would be possible if a random mutation procs for dark pigment (very low chance).

So you think if real-life genetics could be applied to the Altmer and all other Mer and Man races it would be possible yet based on the possibility of a mutation taking place in the offspring of two pure-blood Altmer? Sounds reasonable, and thank you for being the first person to respond. *Smiles*

Sorry by the way for not having links to each of the listed NPCs. I'll try to adjust that just to make it a bit easier for others who view this topic.

If mutations and genetics were not present in that world, many things would be extremely unreasonable. Mostly monsters. Races too. And, of course, the very fact such a thing as "pure blood" exists. If people would just take after their mother, there woild be no difference if she mated a High Elf or Khajiit. My opinion is that in the "Notes on Racial Philogenesis" they were mistaken a bit, they even note on the lack of experiments due to ethic code. Not much of information they had.
The random mutation factor would be too rare to cause the pigment to appear though to be reliable.

Also it could be that earlier series PCs were using dyes.

Marisa Kirisame wrote:If mutations and genetics were not present in that world, many things would be extremely unreasonable. Mostly monsters. Races too. And, of course, the very fact such a thing as "pure blood" exists. If people would just take after their mother, there woild be no difference if she mated a High Elf or Khajiit. My opinion is that in the "Notes on Racial Philogenesis" they were mistaken a bit, they even note on the lack of experiments due to ethic code. Not much of information they had.
The random mutation factor would be too rare to cause the pigment to appear though to be reliable.

Also it could be that earlier series PCs were using dyes.

Is there any proof of the use of dyes for hair in Tamriel though?

And yeah, you have a point about the mutation and genetics thing - a lot of things wouldn't make much sense if at least some parts of real-world genetics couldn't be applied to the universe of the Elder Scrolls as well.

I could be mistaken, but don't all Mer (except Dwemer, I think) come from Aldmer? So maybe it's not so much interbreeding that changed the others into Bosmer, Dunmer, etc, as much as inbreeding of the Aldmer on Summerset which created a genetic disorder in the Altmer?

(admittingly, I know next to nothing about genetics)

MetaCthulhu wrote:I could be mistaken, but don't all Mer (except Dwemer, I think) come from Aldmer? So maybe it's not so much interbreeding that changed the others into Bosmer, Dunmer, etc, as much as inbreeding of the Aldmer on Summerset which created a genetic disorder in the Altmer?

(admittingly, I know next to nothing about genetics)

All Mer (I think the Dwemer as well, though the whole bloody race is a mystery with what little is known about them) descend from the Aldmer, yes. As for the Bosmer and Dunmer and how they changed, well, it seems to be more of an environmental and cultural change - the Bosmer taking 'mannish wives' as well as moving to Valenwood, and their culture changing from that of Altmeri culture and society, while the Dunmer - Chimer at first - were originally just Altmer who worshipped Daedra rather than Aedra and inhabited the alien land of Resdayn/Morrowind. It wasn't until Azura's curse that they became completely separate in appearance to the Altmer, while when they were Chimer they looked very similar to their Summerset/Summurset cousins.

And we all know about the Orsimer and how they 'changed'...

But the reason I mention the possibility of interbreeding is that typically, Altmer seem to be shown with fairer hair colors and there are only a handful that seem to have darker hair colors like black or dark brown. Morrowind had none with dark brown or black hair, Oblivion had a few dark haired ones present yet we know nothing about where they come from - if they were born in Cyrodiil or moved to the province from Summerset or another province, then Skyrim had not even a single dark haired Altmer among them. Except for one of the female presets. And of course with have ESO which has dark haired NPCs that are Dominion and Heritance affiliated but players can't have those hair colors, which is weird.

And if we want to include these, Battlespire depicted Altmer with dark hair options and the Altmer shown for Elder Scrolls Legends seems to have dark hair as well. Although I'm not sure if those could be counted, or at least Legends.

Black and brown hair have always been among the default templates for Altmer in every single TES game. Same with different eye colors. I honestly think this is meant to represent the normal type of genetic variation you'd realistically see in any race of people, and doesn't necessarily indicate interbreeding at all. The whole blonde haired Altmer thing is a racial stereotype, like the red-haired Breton or the black-haired Imperial. There are notable exceptions to it. I recall several walking around in Oblivion, Morrowind and Skyrim. Notably, in Skyrim, it tends to be the Altmer with the "low class/blue collar" jobs, like stable boy or shopkeeper, but this doesn't have to imply mix-breeding

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Black and brown hair have always been among the default templates for Altmer in every single TES game. Same with different eye colors. I honestly think this is meant to represent the normal type of genetic variation you'd realistically see in any race of people, and doesn't necessarily indicate interbreeding at all. The whole blonde haired Altmer thing is a racial stereotype, like the red-haired Breton or the black-haired Imperial. There are notable exceptions to it. I recall several walking around in Oblivion, Morrowind and Skyrim. Notably, in Skyrim, it tends to be the Altmer with the "low class/blue collar" jobs, like stable boy or shopkeeper, but this doesn't have to imply mix-breeding

I recall Altmer in Oblivion having dark hair (like Caranya and her dark brown hair, and Henantier as well), yet I don't remember remember a single Altmer in Skyrim being shown with either brown (or preferrably dark brown) or black hair hair. I even looked at various Altmer NPCs through console commands and found not a single dark haired one among them, generic or named. Well, except for a non-implemented one just called "High Elf" and it was a male with black hair and iron armor.

But still, you think it's possible for a pure-blooded Altmer to have dark hair? Sorry by the way if I seem like I'm overreacting - this has just been annoying me about them when I saw the lack of dark hair color options in ESO for them while NPCs actually have such colors.

BlackWormDisciple wrote:

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Black and brown hair have always been among the default templates for Altmer in every single TES game. Same with different eye colors. I honestly think this is meant to represent the normal type of genetic variation you'd realistically see in any race of people, and doesn't necessarily indicate interbreeding at all. The whole blonde haired Altmer thing is a racial stereotype, like the red-haired Breton or the black-haired Imperial. There are notable exceptions to it. I recall several walking around in Oblivion, Morrowind and Skyrim. Notably, in Skyrim, it tends to be the Altmer with the "low class/blue collar" jobs, like stable boy or shopkeeper, but this doesn't have to imply mix-breeding

I recall Altmer in Oblivion having dark hair (like Caranya and her dark brown hair, and Henantier as well), yet I don't remember remember a single Altmer in Skyrim being shown with either brown (or preferrably dark brown) or black hair hair. I even looked at various Altmer NPCs through console commands and found not a single dark haired one among them, generic or named. Well, except for a non-implemented one just called "High Elf" and it was a male with black hair and iron armor.

But still, you think it's possible for a pure-blooded Altmer to have dark hair? Sorry by the way if I seem like I'm overreacting - this has just been annoying me about them when I saw the lack of dark hair color options in ESO for them while NPCs actually have such colors.

Chancellor Ocato also had brown hair. I assume the pure blond-hair theme in Skyrim stems from the Aryan Nazi myths of the ubermensch being all blonde-haired and blue eyed.

EDIT: Also now that I look at it, Nirayne's hair looks less actual blonde and more light-red/auburn.

Leliel wrote:

BlackWormDisciple wrote:

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Black and brown hair have always been among the default templates for Altmer in every single TES game. Same with different eye colors. I honestly think this is meant to represent the normal type of genetic variation you'd realistically see in any race of people, and doesn't necessarily indicate interbreeding at all. The whole blonde haired Altmer thing is a racial stereotype, like the red-haired Breton or the black-haired Imperial. There are notable exceptions to it. I recall several walking around in Oblivion, Morrowind and Skyrim. Notably, in Skyrim, it tends to be the Altmer with the "low class/blue collar" jobs, like stable boy or shopkeeper, but this doesn't have to imply mix-breeding

I recall Altmer in Oblivion having dark hair (like Caranya and her dark brown hair, and Henantier as well), yet I don't remember remember a single Altmer in Skyrim being shown with either brown (or preferrably dark brown) or black hair hair. I even looked at various Altmer NPCs through console commands and found not a single dark haired one among them, generic or named. Well, except for a non-implemented one just called "High Elf" and it was a male with black hair and iron armor.

But still, you think it's possible for a pure-blooded Altmer to have dark hair? Sorry by the way if I seem like I'm overreacting - this has just been annoying me about them when I saw the lack of dark hair color options in ESO for them while NPCs actually have such colors.

Chancellor Ocato also had brown hair. I assume the pure blond-hair theme in Skyrim stems from the Aryan Nazi myths of the ubermensch being all blonde-haired and blue eyed.

EDIT: Also now that I look at it, Nirayne's hair looks less actual blonde and more light-red/auburn.

I've noticed that as well about Nirayne looking back at her - although it makes sense a bit since she and a few other Altmer with non-blonde or white hair in Skyrim aren't aligned with the Thalmor, who seem to be almost exclusively white haired or blonde/flaxen haired. The fact none of the Altmer, named and generic, in Skyrim have dark hair colors except the 6th female preset for Altmer which has black hair (for reference: http://www.uesp.net/w/images/2/21/SR-race-Altmer.jpg ) as well as the fact dark hair colors are present in Online but unavailable to player Altmer (hopefully just for now) makes me think the black and dark brown hair colors, and any dark shade that isn't blonde really, are rare for Altmer. That, and I think the reason the Thalmor-aligned Altmer have only blonde and white hair is because in addition to drawing Aryan Nazi parallels with them in the 4th Era compared to the nationalist Veiled Heritance, who again have dark haired members as well as fairer/light haired members, of the 2nd Era, it could be they were chosen as 'poster Mer' of sorts. Showing off the stereotypical image of a 'unified, superiorly bred Mer'.

And yes, Ocato's brown haired although it's more of the shade that's available to Altmer in ESO which I'm not overly fond of... Areldur, however, has dark brown hair. As does, again, Caranya, and Henantier. And there's even a black haired Altmer I found in Oblivion - Hlidara Mothril, although she's a bit odd to me with her possession of a last name. Although it could be like the well-known Clan Direnni, though far lesser.

The thing that bothers me though is how the Altmer are depicted as in Morrowind (no black or dark brown hair colors unless the game is modded) and Online (only Altmer NPCs have dark brown, black, and black-gray hair colors while Ocato's shade of brown is available as the darkest color for player Altmer).

I dislike things that happened to the Empire recently. I want the old style unified Empire with its local bigotry and global power back along with these old institutions and guilds.

Not like that has something to do with mer genetics though.

Marisa Kirisame wrote:I dislike things that happened to the Empire recently. I want the old style unified Empire with its local bigotry and global power back along with these old institutions and guilds.

Not like that has something to do with mer genetics though.

Heh, yeah, I agree about a return to the old Empire. The Thalmor took advantage of the Oblivion Crisis though - they wanted revenge for the humiliation brought by Tiber Septim when he used Numidium of all things on the Altmer during his conquest.

The old school heroes with old school skillz should kick some butt old style to get the Empire back together with old guilds returned to their former glory.

To Marisa - we can only see how things go when the next true TES game comes out. We'll see if the Empire can reclaim its glory, and if the Mages Guild will ever return. Although... I wouldn't mind a reformed Order of the Black Worm to join, or to choose to join either the Synod or College of Whispers (I'd personally choose the Whispers for the sake of necromantic freedom).

But back on topic - anyone else care to share their opinions or gatherings on the matter of Altmer pure-bloods and dark hair?

Anyone else, at all?