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Hi all. I've been a longtime lurker on this site, and don't post much, but my brother and I had a conversation the other day that I feel warranted discussion. We were discussing things we felt like should be fine tuned in future TES games, and we ended up discussing the Mages Staff. In Oblivion I loved how it was a symbol of power with mages, and enjoyed the look and use of them. In Skyrim I felt they were pretty overlooked, and even on my mage play throughs I never once used one. My problem with them (Even in Oblivion) is that though Level based they have no effect on leveling any skill up. It was great in Oblivion to use the staff, but it had no effect on leveling up. It is the only weapon I know of like this. I'm curious as to your guys' thoughts on the Mages Staff moving forward, and how you would like to see it be changed.

Seeing as how it's the Staff that's casting the spell, and not you, I think it's sensible that using a Staff doesn't increase your skill level. After all, you don't even have to know the Staff's spell in order to use the Staff.

Fair point, however it's power is tied into your Skill/Level. I think the current setup renders them slightly useless. I'd like to see a lot of things change about the Mage set up, but I could write a novel.

When you obtain a Staff, I believe you get the previous owner's charge level until the Staff is discharged. After that, charge level depends on your Enchanting skill level when you recharge it, which is fair.

Evil-i wrote:When you obtain a Staff, I believe you get the previous owner's charge level until the Staff is discharged. After that, charge level depends on your Enchanting skill level when you recharge it, which is fair.

It says on one of the loading screens that your skill level in the relevant school increases the charges you get from a staff. E.g. with a higher destruction skill you get loads of uses of a staff of fireballs.

I actually use staffs abit, its handy to have both a destruction staff and a spell equipped as even if you run out of magicka you can still keep a barrage going with a staff. Also if i cba with a dragon or something ill just duel wield staffs and blast it back to oblivion. It would be nice if staves could be used as a melee weapon too like in morrowind Id like to see that feature brought back.

Evil-i wrote:Seeing as how it's the Staff that's casting the spell, and not you, I think it's sensible that using a Staff doesn't increase your skill level. After all, you don't even have to know the Staff's spell in order to use the Staff.

Isn't that a bit like saying "it's the sword doing the damage" ...

According to your logic then, since weapons do the damage then your skill with them shouldn't increase. The fact is that staves do increase a skill. Enchanting by keeping them charged, but that's really not sensible or a relevant analogy considering that enchanted weapons do effectively the same thing. What they should have done is had a "Blunt" weapon category befitting a proper Mage or Cleric build where you could actually weild the weapon as a staff to do actual weapon damage. That was the effect in Morrowind, even though Mages rarely should have needed to resort to the use of a melee weapon, they had that option. The change they made to staves from Morrowind to Oblivion was asinine.

logansrun wrote:

Evil-i wrote:Seeing as how it's the Staff that's casting the spell, and not you, I think it's sensible that using a Staff doesn't increase your skill level. After all, you don't even have to know the Staff's spell in order to use the Staff.

Isn't that a bit like saying "it's the sword doing the damage" ...

According to your logic then, since weapons do the damage then your skill with them shouldn't increase. The fact is that staves do increase a skill. Enchanting by keeping them charged, but that's really not sensible or a relevant analogy considering that enchanted weapons do effectively the same thing. What they should have done is had a "Blunt" weapon category befitting a proper Mage or Cleric build where you could actually weild the weapon as a staff to do actual weapon damage. That was the effect in Morrowind, even though Mages rarely should have needed to resort to the use of a melee weapon, they had that option. The change they made to staves from Morrowind to Oblivion was asinine.

But there's a big diffy between swinging a Sword and discharging a Staff.

A more appropriate analogy would be comparing it to another ranged weapon like the bow or crossbow. The "charges" in a staff are similar to the "ammunition" (arrows, bolts) for the bow, crossbow, so no, there's really not much difference at all. You get Smithing skill for smithing ammunition just like you get Enchanting skill for recharging staves, just like you get Enchanting skill for recharging enchanted weapons, etc. The only thing that's really missing from the equation in terms of staves is the weapon damage itself making them far inferior to either enchanted melee or ranged weapons, especially considering your also being effectively cheated out of any other relevant skill increases.

What they should have done instead is allowed them to be used like normal enchanted melee weapons with the option for either a melee or ranged enchantment. Melee cast-on-strike to add to weapon damage or ranged cast-on-use for a spell-casting ranged option. With the Extra Effect perk you could have the option for both, but I suppose that would make way too much sense. They were on the right track with the Ebony Staff. Less weapon damage like a dagger or staff should have resulted in more enchanting points (like a "focus" for a mage to channel his energy through). A dagger would make an appropriate substitute for the traditional wand in this context and game setting.

Worst thing about staves in skyrim is that the staff of magnus (one of tamrials rarest most powerful magic artifacts) is a completely useless glow stick

The idea behind leveling-up in Marksman or Melee combat skills is that your continued use of those weapons furthers your dexterity, finesse or muscular strength in employing those attacks. You learn how to wind your sword blade past your opponent's block, your hammer blows translate harder through the armor, or your keener sense of aim lets you land that arrow in a more vulnerable spot.

We don't see these things overtly in the game, but the implication is that this is why your weapon damage increases with more skill, and you gain skill by continued use.

In casting magic ex nihilo you gain skill through learning how to use the magical energies within yourself: How to marshal more of it, how to handle more of it without harming yourself, etc. You don't learn any more about magic simply by waving a sparkly stick around.

Another similar topic, and other thought that I had was the idea of Magicka. I think the Mage character type needs overhauled in general. The thing that bothers me about magicka is that for every spell you use, it drains energy from your magic levels and when you run out it renders you useless. However, if a warrior runs out of fatigue he doesn't seize to swing his sword nor should he. Obviously there needs to be magicka levels, but I'd like to see it be used more like: Your magicka level is 200 you can cast any spell that doesn't use more than 200 magicka. Because lets be honest thats how the ai operates.

Dark Spark wrote:The idea behind leveling-up in Marksman or Melee combat skills is that your continued use of those weapons furthers your dexterity, finesse or muscular strength in employing those attacks. You learn how to wind your sword blade past your opponent's block, your hammer blows translate harder through the armor, or your keener sense of aim lets you land that arrow in a more vulnerable spot.

We don't see these things overtly in the game, but the implication is that this is why your weapon damage increases with more skill, and you gain skill by continued use.

In casting magic ex nihilo you gain skill through learning how to use the magical energies within yourself: How to marshal more of it, how to handle more of it without harming yourself, etc. You don't learn any more about magic simply by waving a sparkly stick around.

If its as simple as "waving a sparkly stick around" then perhaps you could explain the aspiring mage NPC that can't manage to zombify a wolf with a Staff of Zombies. On the other hand any follower I give a staff to has no problem weilding it. Let's face it. The devs have nerfed the magic system to death and broken it all to hell in the process. A staff, etc. Should act as a focus and provide some spellcasting or other bonus, or simply be treated like a blunt two-handed stick. Either way its use should provide and require some form of skill. Personally, aside from the other suggestions, I also think your magic spells should start off at a base level and simply grow more powerful in damage and effect with your skill level without buying a new spell at each "step". The same apprentice level fire spell should be a fireball doing equivalent damage at level 50 or so. Why do I need so many "flame", etc. Spells all with the same basic effect. Fire, frost, shock, etc. It's redundant for the most part.

logansrun wrote:

Dark Spark wrote:The idea behind leveling-up in Marksman or Melee combat skills is that your continued use of those weapons furthers your dexterity, finesse or muscular strength in employing those attacks. You learn how to wind your sword blade past your opponent's block, your hammer blows translate harder through the armor, or your keener sense of aim lets you land that arrow in a more vulnerable spot.

We don't see these things overtly in the game, but the implication is that this is why your weapon damage increases with more skill, and you gain skill by continued use.

In casting magic ex nihilo you gain skill through learning how to use the magical energies within yourself: How to marshal more of it, how to handle more of it without harming yourself, etc. You don't learn any more about magic simply by waving a sparkly stick around.

If its as simple as "waving a sparkly stick around" then perhaps you could explain the aspiring mage NPC that can't manage to zombify a wolf with a Staff of Zombies.

That's just poor story crafting on Bethesda's part. Not like it's never happened before.

Ok, so then let me put it this way. Do you do the same damage with the same sword at skill level 15 as skill level 100? No? Then why should my mage do the same damage with the same spell at skill level 15 as skill level 100? For that matter, why should they do the same damage with the same staff just to keep it on topic.

Completely agree with the idea of not needing numbers of different fire,frost, shock magic spells. You're destruction damage should level similar to one/two handed. However the amount of time it takes to level destruction is FAR too long. Go through Bleak Falls with a warrior, and then a mage and you'll know what I mean.

I thought they should have added a perk tree for staffs, and treated them like other weapons. not sure exactly what the perks would be, but one could be more uses after charging it, one could be increased spell effect, like staff of fireball would do more fire damage, the staff of the familiar could summon a familiar for a longer duration, etc. one perk could let you dual wield staffs and combine the spells for even greater power.

logansrun wrote:Ok, so then let me put it this way. Do you do the same damage with the same sword at skill level 15 as skill level 100? No? Then why should my mage do the same damage with the same spell at skill level 15 as skill level 100? For that matter, why should they do the same damage with the same staff just to keep it on topic.

"You don't learn any more about magic simply by waving a sparkly stick around."

Finding a Ferrari with the keys in the ignition doesn't turn you into Mario Andretti if you drive it.

DZforTHREE wrote:Completely agree with the idea of not needing numbers of different fire,frost, shock magic spells. You're destruction damage should level similar to one/two handed. However the amount of time it takes to level destruction is FAR too long. Go through Bleak Falls with a warrior, and then a mage and you'll know what I mean.

yeah it would have been nice to have the fire, frost and shock spells level up with you instead of having to buy new ones. I think they did it that way though to give you a choice, do you use a weak spell that doesn't use much magika, or cast a strong spell that will drain your magika more quickly? or if you get low on magika you might have to switch to the weaker spell.

or the other thinking is, a spell is a set thing. no matter how good you are at casting spells, if you cast a certain spell it does a certain thing. so if that certain spell calls for 10 points of damage, that's all it does, whether your a novice or the greatest wizard in the world. still in gameplay I'd have liked the spell to get stronger as I leveled, just to make it easier than having to choose from all the spells I learned.

It makes sense to have different spells because you need options such as ranged, area effect or close defense. But they could all be bought at level one. fireball does ten points and so does firewall or flames but all can be improve by your level as with other weapons. Perks could allow you to improve you area of spells such as I want my fire wall spell to do more damage above my level or be cast at a further range things like that. As for staves why is there not staves of Ironskin or Wards or Detect life. These would be very usefull allowing mages magic in fields not in there stronger areas or to prevent mana use right before a fight. Staves are just batteries for a spell. And you should be able to block or fight with a staff or it is just a spell and not very good.

spin wrote:

DZforTHREE wrote:Completely agree with the idea of not needing numbers of different fire,frost, shock magic spells. You're destruction damage should level similar to one/two handed. However the amount of time it takes to level destruction is FAR too long. Go through Bleak Falls with a warrior, and then a mage and you'll know what I mean.

yeah it would have been nice to have the fire, frost and shock spells level up with you instead of having to buy new ones. I think they did it that way though to give you a choice, do you use a weak spell that doesn't use much magika, or cast a strong spell that will drain your magika more quickly? or if you get low on magika you

or the other thinking is, a spell is a set t. no matter how good you are at casting spells, if you cast a certain spell it does a certain thing. so if that certain spell calls for 10 points of damage, that's all it does, whether your a novice or the greatest wizard in the world. still in gameplay I'd have liked the spell to get stronger as I leveled, just to make it easier than having to choose from all the spells I learned.

Spells being a set thing is how tes has always been and its one thing i dislike about skyrim as spells are now really generic. I liked the fact that spells all had names and they're was even spells that did pretty much the same thing that had unique names, there was so much more variation with the old system especially with spell making. Rather than been limited to one aoe fireball you could make variations such as a really powerful version or a version with a huge aoe or a fireball that does damage over time etc.

Yeah, if it ain't broke, don't fix it