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A dumb question, but a loaded one.

'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies!

'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig!

'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!

It couldn't be helped.

As we've seen throughout the TES series, death is a loose concept. It doesn't mean that an entity's consciousness has dissipated.

Lorkhan has been disassembled, certainly. Separated from his divine spark, yes (which could be mistaken for, or seemed equivalent to, being killed). But dead dead? Dead as the Python parrot? No. I think the Heart of the World's terminology is most accurate in this respect: Lorkhan wasn't killed, he was "undone".

Almost immediately after every suggestion that Lorkhan is no more, there's a followup demonstrating that something of him still exists.

The Monomyth wrote:The hunger fell out of Sep's dead mouth and was the only thing left of the Second Serpent. While the rest of the new world was allowed to strive back to godhood, Sep could only slink around in a dead skin, or swim about in the sky, a hungry void that jealously tried to eat the stars.

After the world is materialized, Lorkhan is separated from his divine center, sometimes involuntarily, and wanders the creation of the et'Ada.

From what I understand, the last we've seen of any sort of conscious Lorkhan/Lorkhan avatar being/spirit is the 'spirit of Shor' who took part in the war of red mountain and ritualistically had his heart torn out by the Nerevar. So not that dead is I guess the best way to put it. Certainly not as alive as, say, the nords would like him to be via a reunion with his divine spark, yet not as dead as the altmer would like to see him with a liquidation of Talos.

If its any consolation though, even the deadest part of Lorkhan is still venerated by the cat folk

Woodhouse wrote:From what I understand, the last we've seen of any sort of conscious Lorkhan/Lorkhan avatar being/spirit is the 'spirit of Shor' who took part in the war of red mountain and ritualistically had his heart torn out by the Nerevar. So not that dead is I guess the best way to put it. Certainly not as alive as, say, the nords would like him to be via a reunion with his divine spark, yet not as dead as the altmer would like to see him with a liquidation of Talos.

If its any consolation though, even the deadest part of Lorkhan is still venerated by the cat folk

Not sure I need to be Consolidated for anything...
I'm also confused about the story of Pelinal, being the Shezzarine (yes I know he said he wasn't shor but to me, I think that's a statement about the difference between the Shezarrine and Shor, Pelinal was saying that he was to Shor what Malacath was to Trinimac basically, or even more so) either way you look at it Pelinal was not hated by the Eight Divines, and with Talos ASCENDING to godhood it gets even worse...
Why do the gods like Lorkhan all of a sudden?
Also, Lorkhan's presence at the battle of red mountain was a rumor or speculation in-game, it's not something that's established definitely... at least to my understanding.

I'm going to side with ol' Mankar Camoran on this one. Lorkhan never fully died because he wasn't Aedra - he's Daedra. Or at least partly Daedra - the part that survives as the moons, Masser and Secunda.

Mod-Loving Wood Elf wrote:I'm going to side with ol' Mankar Camoran on this one. Lorkhan never fully died because he wasn't Aedra - he's Daedra. Or at least partly Daedra - the part that survives as the moons, Masser and Secunda.

Mankar Camoran also said that Nirn was a Daedric realm in oblivion, making Shezzar, Shor whatever you prefer the true ruler and not Akatosh... still want to side with him?

CosmicFish wrote:Mankar Camoran also said that Nirn was a Daedric realm in oblivion, making Shezzar, Shor whatever you prefer the true ruler and not Akatosh... still want to side with him?

Why are you presenting that as a crazy proposition?

I wouldn't necessarily define it as a daedric realm (Lorkhan defies this categorization), but I believe it's a solid truth that the god of all mortals held dominion over the mortal realm.

Lorkhan is neither daedra nor aedra, well he is, daedra and aedra are 'forms' of et'ada, Lorkhan was an et'ada before he was 'undone'.

This might be a few years late, but this seems like the right thread to post my theory I haven't seen anyone else espouse and I've been dying to share. So I hope someone reads this.

Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr isn't dead at all but has become the new Sheograth. The Hero of Kvatch is the Divine Crusader and the Divine Crusader is a reincarnation of Pelinal Whitestrake. Pelinal Whitestrake was believed to be a Shezarrine, an avatar of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr and a reincarnation of previous Shezarrine like Harrald Hairy-Breeks and Hans the Fox, so it would stand to reason that his reincarnation was also a Shezarrine. The Divine Crusader/Hero of Kvatch becomes the new Sheograth during the events of Shivering Isles, presto chango Lorkhan becomes Sheograth.

It makes sense when taking into account the written accounts of Pelinal Whitestrake, who was prone to bouts of homicidal mania. It also seems possible since there are at least two other examples of Elder Scrolls deities transforming, Trinimac becoming Malacath and Jyggalag becoming Sheograth. It also justifies a "mortal" the Hero of Kvatch becoming a Daedric Prince.

Mod-Loving Wood Elf wrote:I'm going to side with ol' Mankar Camoran on this one. Lorkhan never fully died because he wasn't Aedra - he's Daedra. Or at least partly Daedra - the part that survives as the moons, Masser and Secunda.

Imagine for a moment that prior to the creation of Nirn, there was no difference between Aedra and Daedra...

Emzi 43 wrote:Lorkhan is neither daedra nor aedra, well he is, daedra and aedra are 'forms' of et'ada, Lorkhan was an et'ada before he was 'undone'.

(Give this one 100 brown points)

Now imagine that all et'ada had this ability of forming realms (more specifically the realm is them, in their entirety) and the process creating Nirn took the Aedras' infinite realms in Oblivion; a large portion went to Nirn, but with a small, finite realm leftover (the planets). Lorkhan (the trickster) did not put his own realm into Nirn, instead hoping to have full run of the world (kinda like the plot of the game Oblivion, but with Lorkhan instead of Dagon). The Aedra, now rightfully [&@%!] decide to separate Lorkhan's heart from his body (which becomes the moons and the heart in Red Mountain); knowingly or unknowingly recreating a similar process they themselves just underwent.

But, whether its due to his body (being in close orbit) and heart being closer or just the simple fact that the heart is on Nirn, but not bound to it quite like the Aedra; Lorkhan can still hold sway through parts of himself (avatars/shezarrines), his realm, on Nirn. He's very much alive, somewhere between the power of an Aedra and a Daedra.

Now, if the stories are true, that Talos and the Champion of Cyrodiil are Shezarrines, his avatars, it would seem that a part of him has become a god..and another a Daedra..like he's gathering power...making you wonder, perhaps there was a reason that the moons disappeared and reappeared on the hundredth year following the events of Oblivion...

Shezarrine wrote:This might be a few years late, but this seems like the right thread to post my theory I haven't seen anyone else espouse and I've been dying to share. So I hope someone reads this.

Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr isn't dead at all but has become the new Sheograth. The Hero of Kvatch is the Divine Crusader and the Divine Crusader is a reincarnation of Pelinal Whitestrake. Pelinal Whitestrake was believed to be a Shezarrine, an avatar of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr and a reincarnation of previous Shezarrine like Harrald Hairy-Breeks and Hans the Fox, so it would stand to reason that his reincarnation was also a Shezarrine. The Divine Crusader/Hero of Kvatch becomes the new Sheograth during the events of Shivering Isles, presto chango Lorkhan becomes Sheograth.

It makes sense when taking into account the written accounts of Pelinal Whitestrake, who was prone to bouts of homicidal mania. It also seems possible since there are at least two other examples of Elder Scrolls deities transforming, Trinimac becoming Malacath and Jyggalag becoming Sheograth. It also justifies a "mortal" the Hero of Kvatch becoming a Daedric Prince.

Except we now know that Sheogorath is mantled every Greymarch. Nothing special about the CoC doing it.

Lorkhan is a most mysterious and misunderstood god. He exists, but doesn't exist. He can still do things and send avatars to act in on the behalf of mortals, he just doesn't have a body anymore. If that's a decent enough explanation? But as previously said, he may in essence be Talos now, as one of his avatars are part of the Talos oversoul.

Also, not all of the Aedra hated Lorkhan. Some of them were unsatisfied with their creation and turned on Lorkhan along with the elves, while some of the Aedra along with the humans sided with Lorkhan. Some other Aedra just seemed to stay out of it. Interestingly, Boethiah knew that the "elven gods" were full of b.s. and caused the (now) Dunmer to turn on them, so the Dunmer are the only elves that don't seem to view Lorkhan as the devil.

legoless wrote:

Shezarrine wrote:This might be a few years late, but this seems like the right thread to post my theory I haven't seen anyone else espouse and I've been dying to share. So I hope someone reads this.

Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr isn't dead at all but has become the new Sheograth. The Hero of Kvatch is the Divine Crusader and the Divine Crusader is a reincarnation of Pelinal Whitestrake. Pelinal Whitestrake was believed to be a Shezarrine, an avatar of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr and a reincarnation of previous Shezarrine like Harrald Hairy-Breeks and Hans the Fox, so it would stand to reason that his reincarnation was also a Shezarrine. The Divine Crusader/Hero of Kvatch becomes the new Sheograth during the events of Shivering Isles, presto chango Lorkhan becomes Sheograth.

It makes sense when taking into account the written accounts of Pelinal Whitestrake, who was prone to bouts of homicidal mania. It also seems possible since there are at least two other examples of Elder Scrolls deities transforming, Trinimac becoming Malacath and Jyggalag becoming Sheograth. It also justifies a "mortal" the Hero of Kvatch becoming a Daedric Prince.

Except we now know that Sheogorath is mantled every Greymarch. Nothing special about the CoC doing it.

How do we know that? My understanding of it is that Sheogorath disappears and reforms after the curse returns.Hence we need that special set of eyes to build the staff of madness because they saw this truth.

Hissien wrote:

legoless wrote:

Shezarrine wrote:This might be a few years late, but this seems like the right thread to post my theory I haven't seen anyone else espouse and I've been dying to share. So I hope someone reads this.

Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr isn't dead at all but has become the new Sheograth. The Hero of Kvatch is the Divine Crusader and the Divine Crusader is a reincarnation of Pelinal Whitestrake. Pelinal Whitestrake was believed to be a Shezarrine, an avatar of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr and a reincarnation of previous Shezarrine like Harrald Hairy-Breeks and Hans the Fox, so it would stand to reason that his reincarnation was also a Shezarrine. The Divine Crusader/Hero of Kvatch becomes the new Sheograth during the events of Shivering Isles, presto chango Lorkhan becomes Sheograth.

It makes sense when taking into account the written accounts of Pelinal Whitestrake, who was prone to bouts of homicidal mania. It also seems possible since there are at least two other examples of Elder Scrolls deities transforming, Trinimac becoming Malacath and Jyggalag becoming Sheograth. It also justifies a "mortal" the Hero of Kvatch becoming a Daedric Prince.

Except we now know that Sheogorath is mantled every Greymarch. Nothing special about the CoC doing it.

How do we know that? My understanding of it is that Sheogorath disappears and reforms after the curse returns.Hence we need that special set of eyes to build the staff of madness because they saw this truth.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chamberlai ... _Questions
"I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means."

Oh thanks I appreciate that. Good to know

legoless wrote:Except we now know that Sheogorath is mantled every Greymarch. Nothing special about the CoC doing it.

That seems to be most B.S.

Sheogorath explained in ESIV that every Greymarch, he turns back into Jyggalag and reclaims his realm. Once he does so, he transforms back into Sheogorath and has to restore his realm.

Every. Time.

So it finally dawned on him, out of desperation, to give the curse to CoC, freeing Jyggalag who is grateful to be free and went off somewhere into Oblivion and left CoC behind to slowly transform.

SarthesArai wrote:http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chamberlain_Haskill_Answers_Your_Questions
"I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means."

Sheogorath and Jyggalag remembers every Greymarch, but somehow they forget that Sheogorath makes someone else Sheogorath every time?

How does each person remember past eons? When someone mantles a god, does this imply that they become possessed by the god? Or in this case, technically "gods"?

I could perhaps buy this if it were just from Sheogorath's perspective, being crazy and all, but Jyggalag is sane during the Greymarch and is trustworthy. Not only that, but where does Jyggalag go each time after the curse is given to someone else?

Is this guy saying that everyone who "mantles" Sheogorath becomes a soulless Vestige after they pass the curse? Where was the Vestige in ESIV? What does he mean that he's a "fragment"?

How canon is this?

Leckan wrote: That seems to be most B.S.

[snip]

How canon is this?

It's canon

legoless wrote:

Leckan wrote: That seems to be most B.S.

[snip]

How canon is this?

It's canon

Is the eyeroll directed at me or how absurd the new canon is?

I will simply mention that, on a scale of "I thought he was just asleep" to "Soot shadow against a wall", Lorkhan is a definite "We picked most of him up off the floor with a sponge"

CosmicFish wrote:

Mod-Loving Wood Elf wrote:I'm going to side with ol' Mankar Camoran on this one. Lorkhan never fully died because he wasn't Aedra - he's Daedra. Or at least partly Daedra - the part that survives as the moons, Masser and Secunda.

Mankar Camoran also said that Nirn was a Daedric realm in oblivion, making Shezzar, Shor whatever you prefer the true ruler and not Akatosh... still want to side with him?

Look. Using https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sithis_(book) and https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Monomyt ... _the_World makes Lorkhan a Daedric Prince with his minions being the destructive, selfish, and shallow hell spawn that would eventually call themselves "humans".

Lor"Khan is a being with multiple personalities. He has a lot of power but he is even more unconscious than the Aedra. Aspects Lor'Khan do not know they are aspects of the same being and can be good or evil.