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I ask because of my elderstats character card (they seem to frown upon use of exploits), it asked if I used any exploits to achieve my level(s). The only 'exploit' I can think of is escaping Helgen with Ralof and leveling sneak up to 100 before unlocking the door. Would that be considered an exploit?

Nope.

I would consider it an exploit, yes. By taking advantage of the invincibility and friendly status of the character that Bethesda made that way for learning purposes, you are exploiting his lack of hostility to maximize your level without risk before the game begins.

I'm not saying "you should be ashamed!" Or some [&@%!], just I would consider it "exploiting an element of the game for unfair advantage." I don't care because it's single player, but I think a footnote on elderstats is the mature thing to do.

CBR JGWRR wrote:Nope.

It totally is.

I'd consider using console commands (if you're on PC) an exploit if you are using it for beneficial means. Like Player.AddItem + 1 Billion Gold. That would be exploiting.

That's not an exploit that's just a cheat.

An exploit involves farming an error or a badly designed item/power for additional resources. The example mentioned above with the door and Ralof is a perfect example of an exploit.

...and I grew up thinking exploitation was cheating :/

Cheating in a game is giving yourself an unfair advantage by non-game means. An aimbot, infinite money obtained through entering a code or running a script, anything that you don't do through the game itself.

An exploit is figuring out ways to give yourself an advantage without breaking any rules.

Yeah, you're not exactly breaking the game and hacking or cheating with third party software, you're just taking advantage of a rule within the game for unintended benefit.

For instance, the fortify restoration loop isn't a cheat. It's hardwired into the engine, basically. Just comes out to work like that. But by doing so, you are exploiting the mechanic for an unfair advantage, like my friends zero shout cooldown and 2345098723 carry weight and 2359087235 stamina. "ah, ah, ah, it wasn't a cheat, it was in the game!"

The hidden merchant chests. (Whiterun, Dawnstar, Markarth, Solitude, Windhelm, etc.)

I'd definitely consider those to be an exploit.

Raynil dralas wrote:

CBR JGWRR wrote:Nope.

It totally is.

Not really, sneak could easily be trained on any of the other soldiers and more commonly, the bear, not Ralof. Which is acceptable.

taking advantage of his essentialness and non-hostility to raise weapon/destruction skills? That's an exploit.

My opinion, anything that isn't Vanilla is an "exploit"
(let the floggings begin)

Ursula R. M. wrote:My opinion, anything that isn't Vanilla is an "exploit"
(let the floggings begin)

If that was the case, all mods would be exploits.

I think training on Hadvar would be considered an exploit, while using the console to get gold a cheat.

tatortodd22 wrote:For instance, the fortify restoration loop isn't a cheat. It's hardwired into the engine, basically.

Minor correction: It's not hardwired into the engine. In fact, it's rather easy to fix in the Creation Kit, by a few different methods.

I'm only clarifying this because "engine" and "hardcoded" are technical terms with specific meanings, and you might cause confusion using them this way. Something like the number of crafting categories available is called hardcoded (though not part of the engine, which is... even more abstract; Oblivion and Fallout 3 share an engine, for example), because you can't actually change it by any means other than having access to the source code and recompiling, which only Bethesda can do. But the fortify restoration loop is just a few dropdowns in the Creation Kit.

Ursula R. M. wrote:My opinion, anything that isn't Vanilla is an "exploit"
(let the floggings begin)

OK, I'll bite.
*Takes a deep breath, calmly puts the nine-tailed cat back into its a drawer, pulls up a chair and sits down with folded hands*
You are aware that a lot of PC players (including your humble servant) use mods to make the game harder, aren't you? Like e.g. mods that make enemy NPCs block more often, dodge your arrows or actually use healing potions in their inventory during fights; mods that make dragons behave a lot less predictably during combat and e.g. have them ragdoll you if they land near you (which is only realistic considering their weight); mods that force you to keep your characters warm and well-fed or suffer penalties to your health, stamina and fighting skills so that fighting a dragon when you're tired and starving is something you really really want to (but aren't always able to) avoid; or mods that delevel the world around you so that not every dungeon is manageable at every level but you may run into a dragon priest or an ebony-armoured master vampire at level 5 and be wiped the floor with if you go to the wrong places... I could go on like this for quite a while, and I fail to see how any of this is "exploiting", rather the contrary. I am of course not denying that there are lots of mods on the Nexus and Steam Workshop that grossly unbalance the game in the player's favour, but to generalize that and denounce modding in general as exploitative is, to put it politely, highly uninformed.

Ursula R. M. wrote:My opinion, anything that isn't Vanilla is an "exploit"
(let the floggings begin)

Do you really believe this? Or is it just a statement made to get a rise out of people? (aka, let the floggings begin).

I agree with Finn, such a blanket statement cannot come from an informed place. According to the wiki:

Exploit: "make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)". The use of mods to enhance rolepay and combat can't be considered an exploit because they are making the game harder, not using the game itself to the player's full advantage. An example of exploit of the game would be casting soul trap on dead bodies to level up conjuration. The player is taking advantage of a game mechanism, but that's not the way conjuration is meant to be leveled up.

As Finn mentioned, there are plenty of mods out there that make the game more difficult. How is that exploiting? With as many users on this forum that use mods, please let's be considerate of others (and the way they like to play the game) and avoid such a labeling. Because I guarantee the vanilla version of the game isn't anywhere near as difficult when you play on the hardest setting PLUS AI overhaul mods, etc which make you actually work for your leveling.

However, if the OP of this thread is using Elder Stats to record the adventures of a character, the proper thing to do would be to note the mods being used (if any) and if they used any true exploits in the game (like the sneak, conjuration, or muffle one).

MARS wrote:Cheating in a game is giving yourself an unfair advantage by non-game means.

An exploit is figuring out ways to give yourself an advantage without breaking any rules.

The definition Mars has given is entirely spot on. An exploit is so named because one is exploiting flaws in the design of the system (in this case the system is the game, as defined by the game's rules).

Leliel's example is an exploit because it doesn't move outside the rules of the game, but it does go outside the normal use scenario with which the game was designed to suit. The designers did not intend, and probably did not expect, anyone to not progress with the tutorial as it is presented (in one fluid motion).

Ultimately, in a single-palyer game like Skyrim you might as well just use the console to 'cheat' than waste your time trying to exploit the game engine (like the endless swimming against the bridge in Balmora to boost Athletics in Morrowind). That said, mods that rewrite the game rules are just as viable an option, and because it is a single-player experience, if they create game conditions that you are happy with, then who exactly are you 'exploiting'? Most people play non-competitive games for their own enjoyment, after all.

Okay Update - I've come to conclusion that it is indeed an exploit but It doesn't really bother me or hasn't hampered my game experience. In the grand scheme of things it changes nothing, adds nor takes nothing away from my game experience nor anyone else's for that matter and the judging characters aspect of Elder Stats really doesn't interest me anyway since I made my sigs just to show off my personal DBs to the people here at UESP

Thanks OblivionDuruza for the tip, I'm going to have to boot up Morrowind on my Xbox and try out the Balmora cheat sometime.

That's basically the attitude I take with it. As long as you're having fun, there's no real issue with any play style you use.

i have exploited the crap out of telekinesis and multiple legendarisation of alteration in Skyrim lol

i have a question,

in morrowind it was possible to cast a custom soul trap/fortify attribute spell against a wall and if you were standing about 2 feet from that wall, the fortify stat benefit would hit you and be permanent. So you could start with intelligence/willpower to improve the spells you could make and very quickly have a godlike hero (it was a game breaker - if you had 1000 speed then the game would obviously crash very easily - but fun for the novelty of making custom spells that were awe inspiring)

even though this was probably a glitch/bug, i thought there was a sort of logic to soul trapping effects into your body - but this was a cheat and not an exploit, correct?

While veering to more general discussion, that would still not be cheating as it is achievable through normal gameplay.

Well if we really want go back to Morrowind, the exploit most seasoned players surely used at least once (maybe even more often because hell it was awesome) is:

Boots of Blinding Speed + 1s 100% Resist Magic Spell.

Really loved those damn boots

the amulet of shadows is pretty cool too

i brought up the soul trap thing because it's borderline whether it is 'normal play'

i do like games that have 'frayed edges' you can pick at, perhaps one of the things which has happened to TES is in trying to tighten up the rough bits something has been lost (maybe reducing the exploits is part of this)

I like how you can stab/whack away at ralof with a weapon for an hour maxing your weapon skills and then sneak behind him at the bear area so when you leave the cave your able to one shot basically everything with dagger sneak attacks.

I wouldn't consider it a cheat though by any means.

But using the Oghma glitch or resto glitch totally are exploits and can potentially ruin the game for you. Before Dragonborn was released which allowed skill resets I remember doing the resto glitch and making a dagger that did so much damage the numbers wouldn't even fit on screen. I'm so glad Bethesda allowed you to reset your characters and added a "Pinkerton" type NPC so the stress of min/maxing is totally gone.

I honestly would only suggest doing this to reach the armor cap for roleplaying purposes such as if you play a mage but find having to use the armor spells repeatedly annoying so you decide to resto glitch some leather boots with enough armor to reach the 80% cap.

But yeah, I strictly do not craft with more than a basic blacksmith/enchanting potion anymore because at level 80+ the game is easy as it is.

Oblivion was actually even more broken than Skyrim because you could enchant all your gear with chameleon skills and have a weapon thats enchanted 7 times. I haven't played Morrowind in over a year so I'm a bit fuzzy but I do remember being able to make some insane potions on that game and selling them to creeper, like ridiculously overpowered. It got to the point that I had constantly regenerating health for like an hour per potion. Then again Skyrim has an enchantment for that so...

I overall think that they should just ditch blacksmithing in the next TES game or balance it better because it totally ruins the feeling of finding unique gear in dungeons or from quests. I remember finding Mentors ring in an underwater cave near Vivec in Morrowind and being like OOOHHHH MAAIIII GAAAWWDDDD YUUUUSSS!!!!

When I find a unique item in Skyrim I just throw it in my stash or display it in my house as decoration while wearing my armor capped crafted gear.

Lately though on my nearly 3 year old Khajiit I've only been using the blackguard armor set instead of my god mode health regen glass set which forces me to think about what I'm doing because my resists aren't capped and my skill bonuses are no longer as high, it just makes the game more fun.

TL:DR using Hadlof to level up your skills before leaving the cave is totally A-OK as well as repeatedly casting bound sword on top of a rock surrounded by mudcrabs but over-crafting is a no no.