Splitting off from this thread, (specifically beginning at the end of this post). I don't know that I should, or want to, quote almost an entire page of discussion into this opening post, so I would encourage anyone to hop over to that thread to be brought up to speed.
The most basic idea is that I noticed similarities between Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls and the basics of CHIM. Much of the invoked imagery is similar, and it seems to be achieving the same ends.
So what do we know about the relationship between Elder Scrolls and CHIM? Are there additional sources, either in-game, the obscure texts over at The imperial Library, or from some of Michael Kirkbride's infodumps?
I'm absolutely interested in any speculation, theory or fabulous headcanon. CHIM and Elder Scrolls tend to lead to those on an individual basis already, so bringing them together is probably going to require a healthy dose of all three.
Re: The relationship between Elder Scrolls and CHIM
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:57 pm
by Marelo
Well, as I said earlier:
CHIM is a perspective on the Aurbis revealing both the fundamentally interconnected nature of all things and the undeniable presence of individuality and its place in that continuum.
The Elder Scrolls, as manifestations of the true nature of reality, past, present, and future, necessarily also reflect this unified perspective.
Kirkbride on the Scrolls:
Spoiler:
You misinterpret the meaning of what Elder Scrolls are in the colloquial Tamrielic. When taken in this context, to "write an Elder Scroll" is "to make history".
A deeper meaning is meant, too, but not very many laymen bother with that. Until a prophecy is fulfilled, the true contents of an Elder Scoll are malleable, hazy, uncertain. Only by the Hero's action does it become True. The Hero is literally the scribe of the next Elder Scroll, the one in which the prophecy has been fulfilled into a fixed point, negating its precursor.
Oct 15 23:29:13 <%MK> Tamriel
Oct 15 23:29:17 <%MK> Starry Heart
Oct 15 23:29:25 <%MK> That whole [&@%!] thing is a song
Oct 15 23:29:37 <%MK> It was made either out of 12 planets
Oct 15 23:29:57 <%MK> or from two brothers that split in the womb
Oct 15 23:30:12 <%MK> either way, it's the primal wail
Oct 15 23:30:26 <%MK> and those that grew up on it
Oct 15 23:30:33 <%MK> they can't help but hear it
Oct 15 23:30:36 <%MK> and add to it
Oct 15 23:30:45 <%MK> or try to control it
Oct 15 23:30:48 <%MK> or run from it
Oct 15 23:31:07 <%MK> the reason there IS music on Tamriel at ALL
Oct 15 23:31:17 <%MK> is because it exists
Oct 15 23:31:32 <%MK> it was and is
Oct 15 23:31:47 <%MK> and it will not stop
Oct 15 23:31:55 <%MK> there are repeats in it
Oct 15 23:32:03 <%MK> plays on a tune
Oct 15 23:32:10 <%MK> variations
Oct 15 23:32:26 <%MK> and most likely
Oct 15 23:32:34 <%MK> Magnus?
Oct 15 23:32:43 <%MK> he's the one that made the [&@%!]
Oct 15 23:32:55 <%MK> and now that's why he looks back on it
Oct 15 23:33:01 <%MK> every single day
Oct 15 23:33:11 <%MK> that's his promise
Oct 15 23:33:21 <%MK> when you wake up, I will still listen
Oct 15 23:33:27 <%MK> I'm sorry I left
Oct 15 23:33:28 <%MK> but hey
Oct 15 23:33:36 <%MK> I'm still right up here
Oct 15 23:34:04 <%MK> And my mnemoli? They show up every now and then.
Oct 15 23:34:17 <%MK> and collect all the songs you've made since the last time around
Oct 15 23:34:22 <%MK> the last real moment
Oct 15 23:34:39 <%MK> The Mnemoli?
Oct 15 23:34:48 <%MK> They're the keepers of the Elder Scrolls.
Oct 15 23:34:54 <%MK> They cannot be fixed until seen.
Oct 15 23:35:05 <%MK> And they cannot be seen until a moment.
Oct 15 23:35:18 <%MK> And you, your hero, makes that moment.
So the Elder Scrolls are basically recordings of the performed substance of Magnus' composition. CHIM is like being able to listen to that music from within it, being, yourself, one of the notes; so the more of the Scrolls you can understand, the more like CHIM your perspective gets.
But I suspect that you wouldn't be able to actually achieve CHIM through the Scrolls alone; they lack the selfish perspective that CHIM requires, the I AM that must come with I AM NOT. More likely you'd end up like Septimus in the pursuit.
Come to think of it, I bet someone who had already achieved CHIM would be able to read a Scroll like any other narrative.
Re: The relationship between Elder Scrolls and CHIM
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:20 am
by Minor Edits
Perhaps the Elder Scrolls can be understood, in part, as a restraint on CHIM, and an effective one, at that. They declare what should happen, and by doing so, essentially fix what MUST happen, despite anything and everything that could possibly occur. They offer the Hero great freedom and, often if not always, the chance at apotheosis, but at the same time, they trap the Hero into a deterministic series of events, thereby fostering controlled change.
The whole point of Convention (during which, I believe, the Scrolls were made) seems to have been to avoid what the Psijics would call oegnithr, or bad change. That was rampant in the Dawn, and a person who knows CHIM could theoretically change quite a bit. Anyways, the madness/blindness the Scrolls can inflict could be a facet of this control: as a person comes closer and closer to reaching that state artificially by reading the Scrolls, the Scrolls would respond by diminishing that person's ability to cause trouble.
By the way, these thread moves between TES General and Lore seem utterly arbitrary to me.
Re: The relationship between Elder Scrolls and CHIM
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:04 pm
by Woodhouse
I think all the music motifs throughout the elder scrolls is pretty interesting. Especially considering the story of how Sheogorath actually invented music as mortals now it. Maybe this is why all the achievers of CHIM are so unpredictable