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We all recognize this:




As far as I know, this symbol first appeared in Morrowind. I hear it may have been in Redguard, but I'm not sure.

I recently read an article about development of The Elder Scrolls: Arena. It was a neat read, considering it was funny seeing pictures of someone I knew on there. (It's a small world!) Anywho, I ran into this artwork from the game:



I just thought the dragon in the art looked a lot like the Imperial dragon symbol. It shares similar characteristics, such as the diamond-like shape the current one has.
Perhaps a later Bethesda artist saw this image and took inspiration for the symbol from it, or maybe the symbol was already established in lore when Arena was made.

This is simply something I thought was neat, and I thought I'd share it.

That has pretty much been the sign of the Legion, the dragon that is.

Incidentally, the dragon depicted is the red dragon Nafaalilargus, who is an opponent in TES Redguard.

It's an Akaviri Red Dragon, actually. It was the banner the Tsaesci fought under when they arrived in Tamriel. This may not have been the official state symbol of Akavir, though, as this particular group was a group of Dragon hunters and Dragon riders known as the Akaviri Dragonguard. When they got absorbed into the Legions and Imperial civilization the Tamrielic humans eventually adopted their standard as the Imperial symbol.

We don't know if it's supposed to be a specific dragon like Nafaalilargus or just a generic Dragon symbol but I believe the latter is a safe bet.

The out of universe explanation was that Michael Kirkbride probably saw the old Arena artwork and decided to bring it back and flesh it out for Redguard.

I'm fairly sure I remember it being stated in one of the games it was actually him, because of his service to the empire, but both are equally plausible.

CBR JGWRR wrote:I'm fairly sure I remember it being stated in one of the games it was actually him, because of his service to the empire, but both are equally plausible.

If you can find me a quote on that, have at it.

Here's mine:

They have left a visible mark on the Empire of today. The high crafts of daikatanas and dragonscale armor came from Akavir, as did the banners and military dress of Septim's shock troops, the Blades. The Red Dragons that have come to represent the Empire and the Imperial City were originally Akaviri war mounts. Akaviri surnames are rare and prized possessions among the Cyrodilic citizenry of today, and there are trace facial features of the Akaviri in many distinguished Cyrodilic families.

First PGE

Well, there's a bit of speech in Redguard where he's refers to himself as a jewel of the crown. There's nothing to stop both being correct at the same time of course.

CBR JGWRR wrote:Well, there's a bit of speech in Redguard where he's refers to himself as a jewel of the crown. There's nothing to stop both being correct at the same time of course.

Nafaalilargus was arrogant, which isn't surprising considering his race and station. Not every Dragon is hand picked by the Dragonborn to serve as the champion of his Red Legions. I think it's far more likely the banner predates Talos' time, however. There's direct evidence the Legions in TESO use it a few hundred years before the Tiber Wars. We're also directly told the Akaviri were already using a Red Dragon as their banner before they encountered Reman. I think if anything, the opposite of what you're arguing is true. I think Talos chose Nafaalilargus because he looks like the Dragon on the banner.

All of which backs my opening statement that it was him on the banner. You appear to be reading more than what I've wrote...

Not really, your claim was that the symbol was made from a particular dragon, Pilaf's that it predates him and that said dragon was just being arrogant (To stand against me is to stand against the Empire, Symbol of the Empire's strength and all that jazz)

Debate aside, the only TESO Imperial symbol I've noticed was on the banner in one of the cinematics

Diamond within a diamond and some Imperial armors seen in-game sport red diamonds
Tied to the Amulet of Kings

Nah, my statement was a dragon with significant Imperial ties is the dragon depicted in the symbol. Nothing more.

And my argument was that unless Nafaalilargus was also the Dragon depicted on the banner when the Akaviri brought it over hundreds and hundreds of years before Septim was born - which he might be due to his immortality - than it's probably just a generic Red Dragon symbol and his physical resemblance was a coincidence.

The Imperial Dragon symbol is prominently displayed in this trailer from 200 plus years pre-Septim. It's carved on the huge, monolithic fortress structure the Aldmeri chick is climbing.

Or that Tiber decided to make him the dragon depicted at some point. Both work.

O/T - nice to see you can make bosmer mages in TES:O.

CBR JGWRR wrote:Or that Tiber decided to make him the dragon depicted at some point. Both work.

They do, but my explanation is simpler and more straight-forward. Red Dragons were culturally important in Akavir, and later in Reman and Septim's Empire. While Talos still lived they were protected and flew unmolested over the Imperial City. Nafaalilargus was one of many, although he was probably chosen for either his strength or cunning to be the Empire's champion.

That image is from Fang Lair, a main dungeon in Arena:


The dragon symbol does indeed date back to Redguard, as you can see from the Imperial uniforms:

At the time, I think it was supposed to represent Nafaalilargus, the "Imperial Red Dragon".

Except the pamphlet that shipped with Redguard specifically mentions it's a general Akaviri banner depicting their red dragon mounts. Nafaalilargus might have had an origin as one of these mounts, or he may be the ancient Atmoran dragon Nahfalar that's mentioned in "Atlas of Dragons", but there's no reason to assume he's the reason Septim uses that banner. It was already being used by the Imperials hundreds of years before he was even born. The PGE mentions Reman I adopted it during his lifetime.