Includes Dragonborn end-of-main-quest spoilers and speculation.
Spoiler:
I was talking to a friend about the implications of the Dragonborn questline's end, where Hermaeus Mora makes an example of Miraak in front of the PC and declares the latter his new Dragonborn servant. The discussion was about the player's choice in the matter - he wanted to ignore the Daedra, despite the lack of an "I'll never join you, vile demon!" option this time - but I thought about it later and came up with a couple of questions.
1) If the Dovahkiin were to embrace Mora, what would being his champion and servant entail? In his Skyrim quest, Septimus Signus mentions "a few murders, some dissent spread, a plague or two" in return for some secrets, but all we know about Miraak is how he was rewarded and how he used those rewards. Unless rebelling against the dragons was working Mora's will?
2) On a similar note, why did Mora keep Miraak around for so long? I know he got trapped in Apocrypha after Mora snatched him out of the dragons' clutches, but surely the Demon of Knowledge has the means to return a trapped mortal* to Mundus without requiring something like the soul of another Dragonborn?
*IS Miraak mortal? He's lived for thousands of years, so either one doesn't age in Apocrypha or he's undead like the other Dragon Priests.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:29 pm
by BetaB17
Well I guess I'll start with the later>_> but most of this I guess is just opinion mixed with theories or fact.
~Miraak is very much mortal, but in any other situation he would be dead. Mora placed him in a stasis within oblivion, preventing him from aging and thus a mock version of immortality. Mora is after all a daedric prince however try as he might, Miraak could never truely be his.. seeing as his soul has already been claimed.
~Now for the first, Septimus most likely had to gain his favor or attention, prove that he can be a tool>_> though Sheogorath surely would of liked him better.. Anyways Daedra enjoy taking prizes, treasures that they can horde from others. A dragonborn is very much an ultimate prize, because after all what is a value of a dragon's soul? Even more so when in the hands of a mortal! All the princes want to crack a shot for this prize, but Miraak was different. He was tempted by knowledge>_> something that would give him power. Mora wanted more than a slave, he wanted a champion. Even if revolting against the dragons wasn't in his favor, Mora still would have his prize.. Sadly at death a Dovah's soul is returned to their creator>_> so not even that prize can last "forever"
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:53 pm
by swordsister
Daedra owns your arse as always. End of story. Don't you just looove Beth.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:01 pm
by CBR JGWRR
Unfortunately, Yeah That.
Beth have decided that the most powerful mortal since Talos or the Tribunal is left as a slave to some tentacled monster...
At least the C of C got the honour of becoming a Prince rather than being enslaved by one.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:03 pm
by Mattbott
Mora is also the god of fate so he probably uses his knowledge to nudge mortals into his plans but i am not sure how being a champion as a mortal hero, translates into being a slave or servant once dead..
i don't doubt the ability of any Daedric prince to really give you a baaaad day, but tbh i think most of them are a load of meddling blowhards
Spoiler:
i know werewolves all go to hircine so a good nord will get the cure if he wants ot get to sovngard, but i managed to play the thieves guild story without the game telling me explicitly my sould belonged to anyone (i never made the pact with nocturnal, i was never told what would happen after death. But anyway, the deal with her only lasts until you have paid her in full, so no big deal to your immortal soul).
I think what really makes me dubios about daedic lords is that one of my heroes has completed most of the game. So according to them, he is champion of a half a dozen daedra - of often conflicting ethos', two or three of them apparently own his soul and he's also annoyed the crap out of at least two by saying no to them. So the immortal soul is as much a commodity to Daedra in TES as a persons working hours are to employers in RL - which for me dispels a lot of the portentious doom surrounding a so called Deal with the Devil
choice is the key here, you choose to serve a daedra (because you feel an affinity perhaps) in order to commit to the relationship; you might well be tricked down a path (eg nocturnal or hircine) - but without that consent, there's no relationship beyond an angry daedra being able to squash you like an ant at will. Persuasive maybe, but not ownership
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 5:17 pm
by cybrxkhan
I figured it'd just be a convenient way to keep the Dragonborn out of the events of the next TES game.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 8:19 pm
by Marelo
Mora can bellow all he likes about the player being his champion; doesn't make it true.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 7:05 am
by BunBun299
I know my Dragonborn is never giving old ball of tenticals the time of day again. She'll be heading for Sovengarde when the time comes, no matter what any of the Daedra think.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:51 am
by Mattbott
Marelo wrote:Mora can bellow all he likes about the player being his champion; doesn't make it true.
exactly.. being champion doesn't mean you belong after death
my guy is probably going to get fired as champion by a load of daedra cos he has their artifacts in weapons racks and on manequins (in fact i don't think i use any of them at all)
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:19 am
by CBR JGWRR
Mattbott wrote: but i managed to play the thieves guild story without the game telling me explicitly my sould belonged to anyone (i never made the pact with nocturnal, i was never told what would happen after death. But anyway, the deal with her only lasts until you have paid her in full, so no big deal to your immortal soul).
After you pay her, by protecting the Sepulcher in life and death, she takes you into the shadows of the Evergloam - It's the whole point, One with the Shadows. You strictly don't exist anymore, except as a part of a guiding, protecting force for other thieves.
And it isn't possible to do the Thieves' Guild without making the pact.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:33 pm
by Mattbott
i'll have to re play that part, at the time i thought i'd managed to avoid lying to her and promising my soul even though as a werewolf it was Hircine's
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:40 pm
by Pilaf The Defiler
swordsister wrote:Daedra owns your arse as always. End of story. Don't you just looove Beth.
It's not an open and shut case at all. In both Shivering Isles and Dragonborn it's implied you still have a choice. Even Sheogorath's "proof" of being the cOc really only shows he was present for those events - not that he himself was the Champion. He could have been a companion of the Champion - he could be the Adoring Fan for all we know. Wouldn't THAT be amusing?
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 6:33 am
by ZackyZombify
Actually it's been confirmed that he's the CoC.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 7:00 am
by Marelo
Where?
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:20 pm
by Pilaf The Defiler
ZackyZombify wrote:Actually it's been confirmed that he's the CoC.
According to Wes Johnson, and that was an educated guess based on the dialogue he recorded. He's a very smart and fine fellow but that's not an official statement from him.
Yes, SOMEONE mantled Sheogorath and banished Jyggalag. Just like SOMEONE did all the guild quests and side quests. History does not demand that be the exact same person who helped Martin vanquish the Daedra, though. In fact, that's highly unlikely outside of gameplay.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 5:27 pm
by Br3admax
You're going to have to explain that last one to me. Mehrune's Dagon =/= all Daedra. Just because you hate one, doesn't mean you have to hate them all.
As a general rule, I like to assume that all DLCMQs are accomplished by the PC. Little of it would make sense otherwise. SI's is debatable, but all the others, not so much.
There's an ancient topic about it if you feel like reading.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:27 pm
by CBR JGWRR
Br3admax wrote:You're going to have to explain that last one to me. Mehrune's Dagon =/= all Daedra. Just because you hate one, doesn't mean you have to hate them all.
Daedra is also the generic, collective name for the hordes of atronachs, scamps and dremora the C of C would have had to carve his way through...
There's an ancient topic about it if you feel like reading.
Oh, I thought you meant beyond the Skyrim quest dialogue.
Personally, I believe the CoC is Sheogorath, and it's definitely hinted to be true, but it's far from confirmed.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:13 am
by swordsister
swordsister wrote:Daedra owns your arse as always. End of story. Don't you just looove Beth.
Ahem. This.
Really, debate as long as you'd like. This is the way Beth clears heroes out of their lore. All the DLC endings are canon, all MQ endings are canon. Mostly, all the SQ endings are canon. You are everything and everyone.
There. Is. No. Roleplaying. There. Are. No. Choices.
got that? good.
Edit: The only exception to this could have been the Civil war questline but they completely scr*wed that up, cause there's and online BS is on it's way and there's no need to divide the market profit between a DLC and a MMO(not anR)PG.
I'm done with Beth.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 9:36 am
by This Is My Name
swordsister wrote:
I'm done with Beth.
I'm sure they're heartbroken.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:57 am
by Pilaf The Defiler
This Is My Name wrote:
swordsister wrote:
I'm done with Beth.
I'm sure they're heartbroken.
Pilaf "likes" this post.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 12:52 pm
by Br3admax
CBR JGWRR wrote:
Br3admax wrote:You're going to have to explain that last one to me. Mehrune's Dagon =/= all Daedra. Just because you hate one, doesn't mean you have to hate them all.
Daedra is also the generic, collective name for the hordes of atronachs, scamps and dremora the C of C would have had to carve his way through...
In that case, it's time to give up on existence in general. Because of all those bandits, necromancers, and rogues.
@swordsister: But you made that canon. It's amazing how you can purchase a product, do everything in it, and then say "I [&@%!] hate Bethesda. Can you believe they had the audacity to make something they made into their story?" It would rather stupid for them not to. You made the conclusion that we did it, you. I've never heard Bethesda confirm any of our suspicions.
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 2:35 pm
by Pilaf The Defiler
Ha! Yeah... "I bought this game and spent 30 bucks on two DLC, and spent over 1000 hours playing it. Worst game ever!"
Re: Hermaeus Mora and You
Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 6:43 am
by swordsister
Betting my money on some developer mass and getting asskicked in return, would not mean that i'll do the same mistake again. Save your sarcasm, i'm not the only heartbroken fella out there, and you all know know that.
I recommend you folks look around a little. Nexus forums would be a good start.
however try as he might, Miraak could never truely be his.. seeing as his soul has already been claimed.
(in fact i don't think i use any of them at all)