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Pitting these both fellas, who would turn out to be the best mage?
Let's disconsider their god status.

Jagar tharn conquered Tamriel, he also transformed the imperial guard into vicious daedra like monsters and trapped the emperor in a staff.

Sotha Sil was a god, granted he got killed but a god no less! So yea I vote for sotha Sil.

Sotha Sil, if the Psijic Order let him teach on Artaeum, it speaks volumes for not just his power, but his control
Not to mention Almalexia and Sotha Sil fought Mehrunes Dagon out of Mournhold

Sotha Sil is a god. Nough said.

*Cough*

trueflame wrote:
Let's disconsider their god status.

*Cough*

I gotta go with my man Jagar Tharn.
Sotha Sil indeed has unbeliavable achievments but how would it be if he didn't rely on his god powers?
He has some attributes beyond arcane arts which are admirable, like his speechcraft (when he convinced the people of Morrowind the Tribunal was the best choice over Daedric worshipping) and his engineering knowlegde but when it comes to pure magic, Tharn has the edge.
It's hard to believe he did what he did with Uriel Septim.

Chaos the N'wah wrote:*Cough*

trueflame wrote:
Let's disconsider their god status.

*Cough*

Jagar Tharn uses Mehrunes Dagon's power to make himself stronger. The only magic he really knew how to use was Illusion. He won place through trickery and deals, not power.

thamoirthegreat wrote:

Spoiler:

Sotha-Sil figured out how to use the Heart of Lorkhan to become a god. Jagar Tharn couldn't even match Sotha Sil in his prime.

1. I already voted for Sotha Sil, so you're preaching to the choir; people just need to read before they post
2. (More of a nitpick) Sotha Sil figured out how to use Dwemer tools made to tap into the heart's power; he gets points for using a foreign super-wrench with no instructions, not inventing it

I was directing that post to Trueflame. Sorry about that.

Chaos is of like mind of Bread, Jagar is a tricksy hobbitses
The right tools, the wrong hands, and just a pinch of showmanship does not a great wizard make

Sotha Sil wins on the whole Lorkhan's Heart thing alone. Tharn doesn't even really compare.

Jagar Tharn rolled over for the Daedra. Sotha Sil stood up to them various times, verbally and in combat. He's one of my favorites of all time. Sotha Sil may have been a pawn to his ambition and hubris, but at least he was his own pawn.

If you do NOT consider the god status, Jagar Tharn. He banished an emperor to Oblivion, and took his place, for a decade! The entire time he convinced all of Tamriel he was Uriel VII. Granted, Sotha Sil was very powerful, but the entire continent of Tamriel was not affected by him. Plus, Jagar Tharn used Mehrunes Dagon's powers. Can't nobody mess with Dagon, except Sheogorath's insanity....Insanity always triumphs!!!! But that's another topic entirely.

brain7734 wrote:If you do NOT consider the god status, Jagar Tharn. He banished an emperor to Oblivion, and took his place, for a decade! The entire time he convinced all of Tamriel he was Uriel VII. Granted, Sotha Sil was very powerful, but the entire continent of Tamriel was not affected by him. Plus, Jagar Tharn used Mehrunes Dagon's powers. Can't nobody mess with Dagon, except Sheogorath's insanity....Insanity always triumphs!!!! But that's another topic entirely.

*cough* Oblivion Crisis *cough* Martin Septim.....

brain7734 wrote:If you do NOT consider the god status, Jagar Tharn. He banished an emperor to Oblivion, and took his place, for a decade! The entire time he convinced all of Tamriel he was Uriel VII. Granted, Sotha Sil was very powerful, but the entire continent of Tamriel was not affected by him. Plus, Jagar Tharn used Mehrunes Dagon's powers. Can't nobody mess with Dagon, except Sheogorath's insanity....Insanity always triumphs!!!! But that's another topic entirely.

Yeah...you know Sotha Sil actually fought Dagon alongside Almalexia and banished him back to Oblivion, right?

In a duel? Of course Sotha Sil would win. Thought it's hardly fair seeing as, you know the whole heart of a god thing.

He was a more impressive mage than Tharn even without the divinity. He was the Master Wizard of the Chimer people for a long time. He was trained as a Psijic and trained generations of mages.

Not to mention, even though I already did, that Jagar Tharn did not even excel at Destruction spells and only knew Illusion for the most part. Without that and Dagon's power, he's just another random guy.

To be fair, Illusion can be very powerful in its own right if utilized properly. He just never accomplished as much with his life as Sotha Sil did. Sotha Sil was Nerevar's eldest military strategist. Pre-divinity, his feats include devising strategems to crush the Nordic armies and infiltrate Red Mountain to assassinate the Dwemer leaders. The war was won because of the Tribunal, and Sotha Sil was the teacher of Almalexia and Vivec.

But even his Illusion spells were augmented by Dagon's power. Tharn was just a one off lame enemy for a test game.

Br3admax wrote:But even his Illusion spells were augmented by Dagon's power. Tharn was just a one off lame enemy for a test game.

Pretty much. The people arguing he effectively controlled the Empire for over a decade don't realize that's not much of a feat compared to the Dunmer society that Sotha Sil laid the foundations for. Tharn's rule lasted a mere decade, during which the Empire actually lost territory and prestige. Sotha Sil on the other hand, while mortal, drove out the enemies of the Chimer*. Even if he never usurped the Anticipations with his pupils, he'd still go down in history as founding a society that lasted thousands of years. That level of intellect and talent can't be matched by a hedge wizard like Tharn.

*And that includes the Tongues - powerful masters of the Voice. Sotha Sil's strategies and sorcery withstood their assault and turned them back. There were dozens of people as powerful as the Greybeards who couldn't match his cunning or might.

Yeah I'm going for Sotha Sil. I might be biased seeing as he's one of my favorite TES characters but as several people have pointed out, you can't really argue with the whole god thing.

Sotha Sil always sounded like the guy who was slightly detached from everyone else... Maybe it's because he is the last of House Sotha and feels like a lone wolf. So maybe he never really had much interest in expanding his influence over the world. But if he switched place with Tharn then he might do a lot more damage.