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Drem yol lok

I've been a frequent lurker but never had the courage to register until now. See, I have a question so have sought out the lore masters here. I have looked but couldn't find a topic that answered this question but I apologise if I have posted in the wrong place or missed something obvious.

I know it's been out a while but just in case please beware this post contains Dawnguard spoilers.

As part of the Dawnguard storyline the Dovahkiin may themselves soul trapped in order to gain access to the Soul Cairn. I was wondering what happens to the soul in this instance as there is no (to my knowledge) reversal of that soul trap in the story. Upon death, would Dovahkiin's soul belong in Serana's gem?

Also, I recall Serana saying something about it being only a partial soul trap. Does this mean it's like Voldemort's Horcruxes, that the Dragonborn's soul is now permenantly fragmented and upon death he/she will enter Sovngarde incomplete?

He he, I'm picturing Dovahkiin curled up under a bench like you-know-who that scene from the last Harry Potter movie

Anyway, thanks for having me!

There actually is a reversal in the story. After you defeat the dragon and speak to Valerica you get an objective to find the gem that contains your soul. Actually makes very little sense to me now that I think about it but Dawnguard has plot inconsistency all over the place.

Thanks P-sto. Seems I did waste your time after all, I'm sorry about that. Let it be said however that I don't remember getting that objective. I recall talking to the dragon but I don't think I went back to see Valerica which is probably the problem.

I'll remember that for next time though

No worries. My memory of how I was assigned the objective is actually a little foggy. It's possible that it only pops up after choosing a specific dialogue option when speaking to Valerica.

Neither story worked like that, and it's just a silly way to make you want to have Serana bite you.

You're asked to do it by Serana before you enter the Soul Cairn, and you can reverse it by talking to her again before leaving. Apparently it takes special knowledge to only partially soul trap someone.

What I find interesting is that the Dragonborn has the soul of a Dragon, which keeps getting strengthened throughout the game. The soultrap spell doesn't work on Dragons in this game, but that might simply be a game mechanic since your actual body is used as a soul gem for their essence. It may be possible for a non Dragonborn to soultrap a Dragonborn. Apparently the Amulet of Kings held a piece of Akatosh's and Alessia's souls, as well as all the Emperors who came after, etc.

I'm gonna guess Dragons actually can be soul trapped. I don't recall any examples except for the Amulet of Kings but it's a good enough example to be noteworthy.

As far as Dawnguard goes, you lose a little bit of it which weakens you, and you get it back fairly quickly. I assume you shatter the stone and the soul fragment simply flies back into your body. Pieces of souls are probably attached to similar souls, which also explains why Dragon souls fly to other Dragons and Dragonborn mortals instead of vanishing into Aetherius. (Of course Dragons are very special cases. Their souls stay bound within their bones after "death" if not absorbed. Even Dragonborn humans retain some of theirs, as evidenced by the Potema quest line where some of her soul remained bound to her skull.)

What I don't get is why your soul isn't with her after you enter. The soul is supposed to be in the gem until it's used for an enchantment. Why do you have to go through the soul cairn to search for the gem. The only way that makes sense to me is that once you are soul trapped Serana has to release your soul fragment as a price for entry. But if this is the case why isn't your soul fragment in the ether as opposed to being found in another gem.

p-sto wrote:What I don't get is why your soul isn't with her after you enter. The soul is supposed to be in the gem until it's used for an enchantment. Why do you have to go through the soul cairn to search for the gem. The only way that makes sense to me is that once you are soul trapped Serana has to release your soul fragment as a price for entry. But if this is the case why isn't your soul fragment in the ether as opposed to being found in another gem.

I remember reading from somewhere that the souls that are trapped after they are consumed goes to the soul cairn, so probably she had to offer your soul to enter the soul cairn, so the soul gem had been emptied, and this part of your soul went to the soul cairn.

Still doesn't make much sense

She actually directly states this in dialogue. It's hard to miss if you don't skip through it. She offered the portion as a tribute to allow you to enter. It can be stolen back from one of the gems guarding the Soul Cairn later.

Pilaf, I think it's more the nature of the tribute that mystifies me. She doesn't drop the gem or give it to anyone as far as I noticed. If she released the soul to dark masters (I actually forget what they're called but I think it's something close to that) my expectation would have been to find the soul fragment floating around like all the other lost souls there not transferred to another gem. Just nitpicking but I found it odd how they handled the whole thing.

It's just a game mechanic, because they really don't want you to meet yourself, how would you act? And it's the Ideal, or Idle Masters, I think.

Ideal Masters, although I think it's a pun that works on several layers.

It's actually old lore from Battlespire, one of the lesser played offshoots of the main series from the late nineties.

The way I interpret it is that in real life there would have been some sort of animation or offering from Serana to the Ideal Masters, but due to game engine limitations we simply assume it happens off screen, like all the stuff that happens when you access your inventory etc.

It's a lot like Kodlak knowing your name, without you telling him.

Thank you gentlemen

Further to my Dragonborn's Soul question, would the Dovahkiin really be bound by Nocturnal's Nightingale contract? I guess this has been asked before...

Akatosh would probably get him/her out of it, although it is one of the reasons why I haven't done the theives guild on any character.

(As an aside, you may want to change your username to something that doesn't translate to no wisdom. Just a thought)

CBR JGWRR wrote:Akatosh would probably get him/her out of it, although it is one of the reasons why I haven't done the theives guild on any character.

(As an aside, you may want to change your username to something that doesn't translate to no wisdom. Just a thought)

Actually that was intentional. I figured it was apt considering I was in search of answers.

There seems to be so many ways one can repeatedly sell their soul in Skyrim and considering (I imagine) all the quests are meant to be completed by one dragonborn, from a historical standpoint there must be a workaround. Would Hercine and Nocturnal be aware of the status Dovahkiin's soul if a bargain was struck to both Daedric Princes?

Would they both be sitting on their thrones, rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of having the Dragonborn as an imortal servant only to gasp in horror as they realise they've been fooled by their big brother Akatosh?

The subject was covered in the Speculation on Miraak thread: http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=34209.

Essentially, the Dovahkiin is technically exempt, although given Nocturnal's, err, occupation, she might get the Dovahkiin.

If she's lucky she might get him/her without Akatosh knowing, but Hircene is stuffed. As is the vile demon of Knowledge thankfully...

CBR JGWRR wrote:The subject was covered in the Speculation on Miraak thread: http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=34209.

Essentially, the Dovahkiin is technically exempt, although given Nocturnal's, err, occupation, she might get the Dovahkiin.

If she's lucky she might get him/her without Akatosh knowing, but Hircene is stuffed. As is the vile demon of Knowledge thankfully...

Thanks CBR JGWRR I haven't played that dlc yet so I'll stay away if I can due to spoilers but I'm so tempted to jump in.
I am intrigued about what you said regarding Nocturnal. Could you clarify that you are suggesting she could "steal" Dovahkiiin's soul?

I am suggesting Nocturnal's more likely to get the dovahkiin than Hircene, but that both possibilities are almost impossible.

Good to hear that it's unlikely, thanks again CBR!

Niid Onikaan wrote:Further to my Dragonborn's Soul question, would the Dovahkiin really be bound by Nocturnal's Nightingale contract? I guess this has been asked before...

If you tell Tsun in Sovngarde that you're a Nightingale, he'll say something like "Your soul already belongs to Nocturnal", which implies you're going to Nocturnal's realm instead of Sovngarde.

Ah, that put's my theory out then...

Note to self, never do theive's guild.

Leisure Pirate wrote:

Niid Onikaan wrote:Further to my Dragonborn's Soul question, would the Dovahkiin really be bound by Nocturnal's Nightingale contract? I guess this has been asked before...

If you tell Tsun in Sovngarde that you're a Nightingale, he'll say something like "Your soul already belongs to Nocturnal", which implies you're going to Nocturnal's realm instead of Sovngarde.

Since we can uses a sentence or two as our only bases of conclusion, you should tell that he will still say that you may go to Sovngarde at the end. Tsun canceled himself out.

I think the Dovahkiin may have just had one of the many dragon souls trapped as his soul belongs to Akatosh and the dovahkiin needs his dovah soul to use the Thu'um without training and to absorb souls(does that happen once that event happens in Dawnguard?) and the masters of the Soul Carin would view any dragon soul as an acceptable prize thus letting us in. Or the soul trap was just a bit of a leech and only drained a part of it thus when the dovahkiin does perish, most of him will return to Akatosh whilst Serana continues to carry a part of the Dovahkiin,untill she sells it for Skooma cash.