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So much of the conflict in Skyrim seems to have to do with this Tiber Septim/ Talos fella. Founder of the Empire, ascended to Godhood, used Numidium to conquer nations. Yet I feel like I don't know anything about him. Who was he? Is there any book besides The Real Barenziah where we hear his own words? His motive for conquest?

And what's this I hear about him not really being the conquerer and his connections with the Underking (granted, I might know if I played more Daggerfall).

So if the Arcturian Heresy is right, then Talos probably isn't a god anyway and the Thalmor were right all along (who knows how Talos shrines still work then but whatever).

Then again the Greybeards do say they trained Tiber Septim, so maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Talos was the pre-Imperial and post-death name of Tiber Septim. Well, according to some.

I was reading about the Brothers Grimm recently, and how they went around Europe and collected folklore for compilation. Their favored method for distilling a story to its base elements was called “contamination”. That roughly means stripping away all the elements from varying accounts of a fable, and keeping the things that are the same. This brings us closer to the truth.

The universally accepted facts about Talos is that he was the founder of the Third Empire, was a Man (not an Elf or something else, for clarification), that he either was a master of the Voice or employed one, and that he was deified upon death. He opposed the Aldmeri Dominion and helped strengthen the power and holdings of the races of Men on Tamriel. He was the founder of the Septim dynasty. Additional details of his life and legacy vary. Exercise caution when promoting any of them as the one true story. He's a lot like the Jesus of Tamriel's men in a lot of ways, and when studying the Christian bible of our own world with an open mind, one will notice the gospels contradict one another in many ways. Just like Tiber's back-story.

N'wah Nern wrote:So if the Arcturian Heresy is right, then Talos probably isn't a god anyway and the Thalmor were right all along (who knows how Talos shrines still work then but whatever).

Then again the Greybeards do say they trained Tiber Septim, so maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I'd guess somewhere in the middle, although I do believe that Talso had the help of the Underking, and that of course he was a man (although a gifted one, but maybe not as gifted as we are lead to believe by his supporters).

Which is why Talos blesses you in the KotN, right?
The Thalmor just fear anyone else with power which is why they took credit for the ending of the Oblivion Crisis over Martin Septim.

Well, actually, the Thalmor did fight off the Daedra in Summerset, after the Empire did nothing to help them. So yes, they did save the Altmer from the Oblivion Crisis, just as the Argonians were saved by the An-Xileel.

They did - does not in any way justify their Imperialist domination of Valenwood and exploitation of various peoples. But that's beside the point.

Talos is most likely a god. Unless Wolf (that guy in Ghostgate before you face Dagoth Ur) just so-happened to be invisible and give us a magical coin which the Imperial Cult identifies as a blessing of Talos.

Maybe it was a pink elephant.

The Empire was there, just as they were in every province. Their problem was that they were leaderless, stretched incredibly thin across all of Tamriel against an enemy who attacked everywhere at once. The Altmer may have fought well enough to survive, but they weren't exactly victorious by any stretch. The only ones who can make that claim would be the Argonians, and that was because they were fanatically led by the Hist (same ones responsible for their incursion into Morrowind). The Thalmor may (not) have been involved in slowing the Daedra down, and in effect saved lives, but they didn't fair any better than the Legions did.

As far as Talos, he had many enemies. Many of which would certainly like to discredit him and his believers. Alessia was made a saint by Akatosh at the behest of Shor. Talos, meanwhile, reached far beyond what Alessia was able to do and was promoted to Godhood. The Elves are simply mad (jealous) of this fact, and it angers them that a human would reach such a high plane before any Elf-kin would.

Every thread is actually about the Thalmor isn't it lol?

Where do you get the idea that they helped in the Oblivion Crisis? According to Rising Threat, brave Altmeri warriors defended Summerset from Deadra until Martin stopped Dagon. When it was over the Thalmor took the credit. They do this in Elsweyr too, taking credit for the moons coming back.

Of course, this is according to Rising Threat. But I doubt he would be so paranoid if he hadn't seen other altmer and not the Thalmor dying for their land.

"No Mer has ever tried to ascend to god-hood"
Alamexia, Vivec, Sotha Sil

OblivionDuruza wrote:I struggle to believe that at all, because no Mer has ever tried to ascend to god-hood, well, not including that crazy Dunmeri vampire found in Morrowind. The Altmer have never been shown to care about ascending to divinity, it's not a motivation that we've ever seen before, and not one we see now.

As for Alessia not doing as much or as greatly as Talos. In what basis is this true? Alessia forged the first Empire of Men, freeing the oppressed slave races of men from the tyrannical Ayleids. Equally, Talos forged an Empire of Men, and he used both the Underking's power, and the Numidium to do so, in fact one of the two major theories claims that he used assassination and backstabbing to achieve his ascension to the throne as well.

Riiight...now you're either delusional or just plain lying. What about Dagoth Ur, Vivec, Almalexia, Sotha Sil, Nerevar, or the allegedly the entire Dwemeri in Dwemereth.

And the Nords forged the First Empire..hence how they sent aid to Alessia. Alessia's feat was in defeating and overthrowing a race as evil as the Aylieds.

Its funny how an actual named Altmer tells an account about the Thalmor and its opinionated conjecture yet unnamed sources who actually conjecture about Talos are telling the truth. Isn't it? Are you being serious or merely toying with me at this point?

Interestingly, I've stumbled upon a quest in a town in Skyrim where a ghost identifies you as "Hjalti", which was the birth name of Tiber Septim in "The Arcturian Heresy". Since you are also identified as Ysmir and Dragonborn in this game, it reinforces my idea that either

A - the Dovakhiin is a reincarnation of Tiber Septim or

B - both Tiber Septim and the PC in Skyrim are Shezzarines - mortal avatars for Shor. Being two representations of the same concept, the old ghost mistakes you for his friend Hjalti, a previous Shezzarine.

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Interestingly, I've stumbled upon a quest in a town in Skyrim where a ghost identifies you as "Hjalti", which was the birth name of Tiber Septim in "The Arcturian Heresy". Since you are also identified as Ysmir and Dragonborn in this game, it reinforces my idea that either

A - the Dovakhiin is a reincarnation of Tiber Septim or

B - both Tiber Septim and the PC in Skyrim are Shezzarines - mortal avatars for Shor. Being two representations of the same concept, the old ghost mistakes you for his friend Hjalti, a previous Shezzarine.

What town was it? Id like to explore that

Old Hroldan. It's in a fairly isolated place. It's kind of east by southeast from Markarth but it's a long trek. Southwest of Rorikstead if you've found that. Pretty good trek in either direction. It's a little village, barely more than an inn.

This seems like the right place for a discussion about old Tiber Septim.

Why is it that he refers to himself constantly in the plural form? "We", "Us", things like that, within "The Real Barenziah". Was there some explanation, or was it just a little authors ploy?

Nightingale wrote:This seems like the right place for a discussion about old Tiber Septim.

Why is it that he refers to himself constantly in the plural form? "We", "Us", things like that, within "The Real Barenziah". Was there some explanation, or was it just a little authors ploy?

old days kings would say we and us when refreing to them selfs, why I cant quite recall but its a sign of being a leader basicly

Nightingale wrote:This seems like the right place for a discussion about old Tiber Septim.

Why is it that he refers to himself constantly in the plural form? "We", "Us", things like that, within "The Real Barenziah". Was there some explanation, or was it just a little authors ploy?

Explanation# 1 - That's just how royalty talks. The Queen of England says things like "We are most pleased." for instance. This alludes to the old saying "The King is the land." The monarch is supposed to represent all the people and the land, so he's "we".

Explanatio# 2 - Talos is more than one person, who has had many names and even inhabits several bodies at once. This is where you get into the wonky metaphysical stuff of TES. It's a concept often toyed with in the background lore. Talos is Tiber Septim, but he's also Ysmir, and Zurin Arctus, etc. He's sometimes called "the many-headed Talos." I'm not sure if the author of the Real Barenziah intended this, since it's Daggerfall era lore and written before the Kirkbride/Kuhlmann machine started churning out the Pocket Guide and Morrowind era stuff, but in hindsight it could easily apply.

The strongest reference in a book that actually made it into a game: Before The Ages Of Men

Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again.

Explanation# 1 - That's just how royalty talks. The Queen of England says things like "We are most pleased." for instance. This alludes to the old saying "The King is the land." The monarch is supposed to represent all the people and the land, so he's "we".

Explanatio# 2 - Talos is more than one person, who has had many names and even inhabits several bodies at once. This is where you get into the wonky metaphysical stuff of TES. It's a concept often toyed with in the background lore. Talos is Tiber Septim, but he's also Ysmir, and Zurin Arctus, etc. He's sometimes called "the many-headed Talos." I'm not sure if the author of the Real Barenziah intended this, since it's Daggerfall era lore and written before the Kirkbride/Kuhlmann machine started churning out the Pocket Guide and Morrowind era stuff, but in hindsight it could easily apply.

The strongest reference in a book that actually made it into a game: Before The Ages Of Men

Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again.

You do make a good point regarding the little metaphysical things that may exist in background lore. There are many strange allusions that appear in different material, especially regarding Talos. When I read how he apparently referred to himself, even in the most intimate of times (we all know how men get mushy with an attractive girl laying in their bed), it got me thinking that it may be his true nature. He may have been all those people...and was aware of the fact.

Now, the book is not a primary source by any stretch of the imagination, but I just thought it was interesting.

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again.

Wait, so Tiber Septim=Pelinal=Ysmir? Just how old is this guy or are we talking about reincarnations with our hero as the latest?

Reincarnations.

N'wah Nern wrote:

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again.

Wait, so Tiber Septim=Pelinal=Ysmir? Just how old is this guy or are we talking about reincarnations with our hero as the latest?

The way I understand it, you're not a reincarnation of Tiber - you're both reincarnations or waking aspects of Lorkhan, the Lunar God. Or at least the power BEHIND Lorkhan - what he represents.

For some differing ideas I would refer you to first:

A Children's Anuad (This is the book Esbern needs to find in Skyrim before he'll agree to leave with you. "Now where did I put my Anotated Anuad?") This is a biased account, in favor of Anu. Probably from an Aldmeri or similar perspective.

Another biased source, probably written by a Sixth House cultist from Morrowind: Sithis

And finally The Monomyth

^Different interpretations of the very earliest moments of the TES mythos - stuff very rarely explored in game dialogue or quests. Way before Daedra or Divines there was the Godhead who split into Anu and Padomay. Padomay, or Sithis, represents Change. Anu is Stasis. Anu is the ultimate expression of divinity among the Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor and they long to return to this state of divinity.

Talos is an aspect of Lorkhan who was begat by Sithis to "destroy the universe" as the Thalmor see it, although from the perspective of Men the one known as Shor or Shezarr performed the ultimate act of selfless love - he and the other Divines limited themselves and cut off large portions of their power so that mortals could live, be tested and grow spiritually. Tiber Septim mantled Lorkhan and took his place as a Divine to help protect against his greatest enemies, the Aldmeri Dominion, and to protect Mundus from dissolving back into the nothingness of the pre Dawn era. If the Thalmor ever truly succeeded in erasing Talos, then Lorkhan's soul would be immensely weakened and Auriel would possibly be able to undo the work done at the Convention. "This heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other."

Finally, while this is arguably a lower level of Canon, MK usually knows his stuff, and was largely responsible for some of the above books that made it into these games. He had this to say in a forum post about Numidium, Talos' ultimate weapon:

Numidium's siege of Alinor:

It's not the Brass God that wrecks everything so much as it is all the plane(t)s and timelines that orbit it, singing world-refusals.

The Surrender of Alinor happened in one hour, but Numidium's siege lasted from the Mythic Era until long into the Fifth. Some Mirror Logicians of the Altmer fight it still in chrysalis shells that phase in and out of Tamrielic Prime, and their brethren know nothing of their purpose unless they stare too long and break their own possipoints.

^ Another implication that Numidium/Talos represents something greater than themselves. An aspect of Shezzar, waging metaphysical war with the Gnostic ideals of the Aldmeri Dominion outside of time and space as we perceive it. (The comparison is actually fairly strong. In their world view Lorkhan is the "demi urge" or false God/Satan figure who tricked the Universe into becoming finite and mortal. Again, whether this is an act of salvation or damnation depends on your view of physical reality.)

FrostyInferno016 wrote:Riiight...now you're either delusional or just plain lying. What about Dagoth Ur, Vivec, Almalexia, Sotha Sil, Nerevar, or the allegedly the entire Dwemeri in Dwemereth.

And the Nords forged the First Empire..hence how they sent aid to Alessia. Alessia's feat was in defeating and overthrowing a race as evil as the Aylieds.

Its funny how an actual named Altmer tells an account about the Thalmor and its opinionated conjecture yet unnamed sources who actually conjecture about Talos are telling the truth. Isn't it? Are you being serious or merely toying with me at this point?

Firstly, the Dunmeri =/= Altmer, so even if that were true, what has that got to do with the Thalmor I ask with all honesty?

Secondly, The Tribunal are a different matter to the Aedra, and you yourself just demonstrate my point. I have no problem with Talos as a minor god, like Alessia, et al those others I've been talking about, and like the Tribunal as you mention. The Tribunal are not and do not form any parallel with the Aedra, whom we know formed the world.

Secondly, I've never denied Rising Threat as a source of Lore, however, you're talking one author, whose sanity is in question, and who clearly does not like the Thalmor for whatever reason. Of course he's not going to be singing their praises, it's what we call being biased. He fled the Thalmor, so of course he's going to badmouth them. That doesn't take away from the fact that rumours of the Thalmor fighting Daedra can be heard by those willing not to block them out. Further, on the whole moons thing, Nwah says it as if it isn't true, but if this were the case, does this make the entirety of Elsweyr stupid? The Khajiiti believe that the Thalmor caused the moons to reappear, and the Khajiiti are the race most tied to the moons themselves. Why doubt their judgement without anything that points to them being wrong? Why can't the Thalmor be 'Altmeri Heroes' who fought of the Daedra? What reason is there for them not to be? So they aren't the nicest folks to the Man races, doesn't mean we should detract from the work that they've clearly done in reforging the Dominion and protecting it. You guys unjustly assume that the Thalmor are oppressing their own people, which simply is not a plausible standpoint.

See the book on The Great War:

During the crisis, the Crystal Tower was forced to give the Thalmor greater power and authority. Their efforts almost certainly saved Summerset Isle from being overrun.

N'wah Nern wrote:

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:
Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again.

Wait, so Tiber Septim=Pelinal=Ysmir? Just how old is this guy or are we talking about reincarnations with our hero as the latest?

Actually, we're talking that they're all Shezzarines, not reincarnations of each other, but of Shezzar, the man version of Lorkhan.