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Let me start by saying this, while drinking at my favorite establishment a friend of mine made a comment about "Wow this place is full of Redguards", and I immediately knew what he meant. I mean even the facial structure and hair styles in Oblivion are prototypical african-american stereotypes.

My question is, if he can identify an entire ethnicity with the use of a single term, what makes the word Redguard any different then other racial slurs?

If this offends someone I appologise, and if the thread needs closed please lock it.

what you trying to say man naa im kidding no it i snt its just like you catorgizing

In case you didn't notice, the universe of the Elder Scrolls takes great pains to separate a player's persona into one of many clearly defined 'images' of how they'd fit into the game world.

theelderschosenone wrote:what you trying to say man naa im kidding no it i snt its just like you catorgizing

Bloody 'ell.

what she said

Dark Spark wrote:In case you didn't notice, the universe of the Elder Scrolls takes great pains to separate a player's persona into one of many clearly defined 'images' of how they'd fit into the game world.

I still fail to see how having a lore related reason makes it any different. What other game seperates, what for all intensive purposes are humans, into seperate races?

Lynx2069 wrote:

Dark Spark wrote:In case you didn't notice, the universe of the Elder Scrolls takes great pains to separate a player's persona into one of many clearly defined 'images' of how they'd fit into the game world.

I still fail to see how having a lore related reason makes it any different. What other game seperates, what for all intensive purposes are humans, into seperate races?

Only what someone takes away from any story they experience, instead of what they might invest into it.

I, for one, have never been keen on playing non-human characters in this sort of game. Humankind is just too complex a thing for me to break out of.

Dark Spark wrote:

Lynx2069 wrote:

Dark Spark wrote:In case you didn't notice, the universe of the Elder Scrolls takes great pains to separate a player's persona into one of many clearly defined 'images' of how they'd fit into the game world.

I still fail to see how having a lore related reason makes it any different. What other game seperates, what for all intensive purposes are humans, into seperate races?

Only what someone takes away from any story they experience, instead of what they might invest into it.

I, for one, have never been keen on playing non-human characters in this sort of game. Humankind is just too complex a thing for me to break out of.

Humankind is complex but aren't all humans equal, I mean sure for a games sake there has to be differences, but why seperate them based on their skin?

I never play as a human, humanity is un-compassionate, in my opinion but I 'm a firm believer in Tabula Rosa, we're all product of our enviroment to an extent.

I do see the world differently then he does, but maybe I read too much into it.

They're not separated based on their skin. They do not share a common ancestry at all.

The Redguards came from the continent of Yokuda, somewhere west of Tamriel. The ancestors to the Nords and Imperials came from the continent Atmora, which lies north of Skyrim.

Argonanza wrote:They're not separated based on their skin. They do not share a common ancestry at all.

The Redguards came from the continent of Yokuda, somewhere west of Tamriel. The ancestors to the Nords and Imperials came from the continent Atmora, which lies north of Skyrim.

Why no caucasian Redguards or african-american Imperial, or elves, etc.

Seperating them based on ancestry is one thing but why make skin color one of the differences?

Role-playing games have a hard time breaking out of the old conventions of portraying overt elemental forces with simple labels. If you get attacked by an angry ogre, you're usually not concerned about why the ogre has decided to squish you into a bloody pulp— you have the immediate problem of finding some means on how not to get squished.

RPGs tend to treat characters/creatures as pre-made packets of plot complication: see this fellow with the green skin and leather loincloth? He's not gonna be much help building your alchemical firethrower. See the svelte pointy-eared female in the diaphanous white gown? I'd think twice about pitting her in that arm-wrestling match in the bandit camp.

You can always attempt to buck convention, but game companies are probably not the fearless bastions of experimentation we hope they may be.

We may find such boldness written within books. Those things made out of paper. Yeah— it's [&@%!].

Racism is ever present in TES, just look at the Elven view on the beast races. However I don't think this really counts as racism...

If every single race of man in this game was an equal share of black, white, half cast or whatever then that to me would be a bit boring. Redguards come from a hot continent(Yakuda) originally, so it makes sense scientifically that they would be black. Nords are the pale race, that is because they come from a very cold land(Atmora)... which is also scientifically correct.

It's easier to keep a race unique by avoiding all that half-half stuff. One of the most defining things about the Redguards is that they are the only black race in the game. You can instantly recognize one, which is a good thing really. What's great for a game isn't necessarily what would be correct in real life.

my first thgout is the impreals come form someone with not much sun while the Redgaurds do

they are two types of beigns

think of it like us and the other humanoids who lived here
We where NOT the same, even if we looked alike

Dark Spark wrote:Role-playing games have a hard time breaking out of the old conventions of portraying overt elemental forces with simple labels. If you get attacked by an angry ogre, you're usually not concerned about why the ogre has decided to squish you into a bloody pulp— you have the immediate problem of finding some means on how not to get squished.

RPGs tend to treat characters/creatures as pre-made packets of plot complication: see this fellow with the green skin and leather loincloth? He's not gonna be much help building your alchemical firethrower. See the svelte pointy-eared female in the diaphanous white gown? I'd think twice about pitting her in that arm-wrestling match in the bandit camp.

You can always attempt to buck convention, but game companies are probably not the fearless bastions of experimentation we hope they may be.

We may find such boldness written within books. Those things made out of paper. Yeah— it's [&@%!]

Now, that statments. it does two things.

First it makes a great point in that, too some degree video games and all "visual" entertainment is bound by preformed stereotypes of racism and sexism that stims from societies of, ironically, all races and sexes.

Again, Tabula Rosa, we are all blank slates, and we are formed as byproducts of our social hierarchy and pre-conceived stereotypes passed down by our elders.

Secondly, I needed my dictionary for a few of those words, which is a rarity for me, if I do say so myself.

After thinking over my friends comment I think where and when he said it that bothered me, which was at a very important lunch with several clients who I think could have possibly gotten the refrence, hopefully not.

To sum things up, if the term Redguard is recognizable to me, when my mind isn't thinking Elder scrolls, is it different then other slurs?

or is Skyrim on my subconscious?

Since there is only one dark-skinned race, and many lighter skinned ones, one might be lead to believe that the game designers think that black people are "all the same" and therefore only one race is necessary to represent them. Obviously if that were true, it would be offensive. However, that's definitely not the impression that I got. I think it would've been nice if they included more dark-skinned races, but it's a minor detail that I don't care too much about. The reason I don't get the impression that the game designers are racist is because Redguards are a very varied race. Gentleman Jim Stacey is a good example of this. Redguards are not built to be thieves, but one is the head of the thieves guild. We see examples of this with all races (and sexes, actually), and it's one of the things that really impressed me about Morrowind.

About what your friend said though. That's the kind of thing that some people might be offended by. I'm sure he was just making a joke and meant no harm, but you have to be careful making jokes like that because there are people out there who will be offended. It's the kind of thing that I'd be a little uncomfortable hearing because it does sound at least a little like a racial slur. I think the problem with it is that I'm sure your friend knows what terms are acceptable, but he chose not to use one of them. This isn't to say that he chose one that's derogatory because that's the first time I've ever heard of its use in that context, so I'm really not sure what it's supposed to mean. And that's another reason not to use it actually. Using words that people can't figure out the meaning of is generally a bad idea. Long story short: I think it's best not to say it.

Racism exists in TES, look at the reputation page on the wiki, some races get + reputation to some races, some get -. There is a race that is primarily african american, so what? This thread seems like the typical "They can make a movie called white boy cant run but they cant make a movie called black man cant swim". Nords are based off of Nordic/Scandinavian heritage. I am Norwegian and I do not take offense to this, the only thing I hate are people who are like "THOSE STUPID NORDS THEY ARE NOT SMARTZ AT ALLZ" which does offend me, but that has nothing to do with that. Nords are the stereotypical nordic viking. I love this fact. Only thing I don't like is TES fanbase claiming nords have no intelligence >.>. Stereotypes exist for a reason. Do you think one day every was randomly like "Hmm, I believe people of the Nigerian heritage can run fast!" and it instantly became offensive (not sure how that is offensive...if someone said I could run fast I would be happy O.o). My point is, games have stereotypes, and stereotypes exist for a reason, some are true, some are not true. Calling someone in real life a redguard because they are African American is not racist, Redguards are based off of african americans, someone who has no idea what TES is might look at you funny, but otherwise they probably wouldn't mind..and to my last ramble...nothing happens if you are offended.

You are not going to be offended and suddenly wake up with leprosy.

Why is it racist for the game to present the player with options to play as different races? Isn't that sort of the opposite of racism? Instead of being forced to be either a white human, elf, or an orc, they say that you can be multiple races of human characters and then others as well. If we are calling the game racist for dividing the PC's up into race, then I think its racist that there is no Asian race, or Hispanic race.

I think this has already been confounded, but just something to remember: the color of the grass depends on what side of the fence you're standing on. It's not racist because you are looking at it with the cultural worldview of someone who lives in our world, where we have that racially charged history. In the context of Tamriel, which is fictional, it is not racist because they are two separate races with different histories and origins, as Argonanza said. While video games and books do portray things and issues from our world, this isn't the same case.

The TES universe does have racism, however, as our members have already pointed out - just not necessarily like the point that you've mentioned.

You do know what racism is right? This is clearly not racist considering this is in no way prejudiced or offensive to black people.
If a black person asked you if its racist that the whole of the white community can be described as "Imperial" or "Breton" you'd say no, so why should it be any different for Redguards.

Lynx2069 wrote: Why no caucasian Redguards or african-american Imperial, or elves, etc.

Seperating them based on ancestry is one thing but why make skin color one of the differences?

There are no caucasian native africans. Basically the Redguards are their colour because of where they're from. Clearly the places where Elves and Imperials originate had no need for such dark skin.

First of all, I don't think this is racism.

BUUTT, in Skyrim, there are two redguard couples with children, and their children are clearly white. I found this kind of odd..

No. Racism would be saying redguards or imperials are inferior based on their skin color.

I mean, geez, do we need another world war so the current generation can actually know what is truly bad and what is just crying over spilt milk?

I don't think our concept of racism even applies to fantasy worlds like Tamriel. Racists invent supposed differences between people of different ethnicity (and exagerate the real ones) to "prove" that one is better than the other. The problem is that in Tamriel those differences are a basic fact of life, you can see it right at the beginning, during the character creation process - and some races really are better at some things than others (mind you, not better in general). They are not one species artificially divided into conflicted groups because of history, culture and superficial physical characteristics, they are many species sharing the same world. I imagine that in a society like this the idea of what is and what is not "racist" would develop in a completely different way than in our world.

If Redguards being considered a separate race is racism, the same should apply to different races of Mer - after all you're assuming that all Bosmer are the same to some extent right?

But I have to admitt that the lack of people who are "in between" looks a bit strange. That would mean that either it's impossible for members of different races to have children together (which makes no sense at all, that would be like saying that an Egyptian lady can't have a kid with a man from Mexico) or there is an extremely strong social taboo that prevents it (which would have to come up in conversations at least once - which it doesn't, to my knowledge). Or that people from Bethesda decided it would be a right mess and decided not to touch that particular problem. Either way it's a major hole in the lore of Tamriel, IMHO. Unless it has been explained somehow in other TES games and I don't know anything about it?

Redgard stole mah bike!

Differentiating is to be expected. Racism is not the same, and races in Tamriel are almost quasi-species anyway, with divinely-affected genetics and whatnot. Who is to blame but the divines and daedra?

Prety sure Redguards are based off of Moors instead of Africian americians anyway.

Ps. It's the High Elves that are most discriminated against in Skyrim.
after that it's probaly the beast races and the other types of elves.

i guess you could see a touchy aspect to redguards because racism against blacks is such an issue irl at the moment, but there's not much hate against redguards in game is there? not that i've noticed, not as much as there is against other races.

and besides, ain't nothin wrong with racism in a game, remember ad&d when you made your character you got to pick your racial enemy and you got attack bonuses against them cos you hated them so much it made you murderously savage, it's always been part of the whole fantasy thing, and the more the better, no-one's getting hurt, and it creates great sympathy and conflict, also it's so relevant to our own world, and the long history of genocide our species has, but not in a way that would offend anyone, just in a way that would make you think about it a little bit.

I would imagine the Nords and Redguards would get along fine as they are both Warior cultures.
I believe the Imprerials and Brets get along well with Redguard too. The High and Dark elves rarely get along with anyone.
and the Argonians, Bosimer, and Kajit are rather indeferent.