UESP Forums

They brought back level scaling............... Do the devs not know that, i dunno, EVERYONE HATES LEVEL SCALING?!?!? /facepalm

I just hope it's more similar to Morrowind's or Daggerfall's level scaling than Oblivion's. I can't believe they wouldn't have realized how flawed it was in OB.

I gues so.... but I dont want to be in full daedric armor and get killed by a random bear

Same here. Nor do I want to end up on bandits in full daedric, glass or ebony armor. Ever.

If they implement scaling in a similar manner to Fallout 3/NV (enemies scale to a degree, but equipment/rewards remain more-or-less static), I won't mind, but if they paste Oblivion style level lists into Skyrim... ah, who am I kidding, even with that against it, it still looks like it'll blow my freaking mind

Dlarsh wrote:If they implement scaling in a similar manner to Fallout 3/NV (enemies scale to a degree, but equipment/rewards remain more-or-less static), I won't mind, but if they paste Oblivion style level lists into Skyrim... ah, who am I kidding, even with that against it, it still looks like it'll blow my freaking mind

ok, i know this is extremely off topic, but I love your username and I dont know why

Blackfire wrote:

Dlarsh wrote:If they implement scaling in a similar manner to Fallout 3/NV (enemies scale to a degree, but equipment/rewards remain more-or-less static), I won't mind, but if they paste Oblivion style level lists into Skyrim... ah, who am I kidding, even with that against it, it still looks like it'll blow my freaking mind

ok, i know this is extremely off topic, but I love your username and I dont know why

Thank you, I'm rather fond of it myself

As for the topic; so long as I don't need to powerlevel at the very beginning of the game to ensure my quest rewards are still rewarding, I'll be happy.

The way someone put it was that some side quests (more specifically randomly generated ones) will be scaled to your level. Called it something like "dynamic story telling" ... so hopefully that means there are still dangerous areas low level while traveling. I literally want a place that I can't step foot in until I'm level 25.

But I agree with making it more like Morrowind. There was level scaling, but it didn't stick out as much. I mostly noticed it while the Dark Brotherhood attacks you after you rest. Their gear would gradually increase and when you hit the low 20's two of them would appear.

Mr. Mischief wrote:The way someone put it was that some side quests (more specifically randomly generated ones) will be scaled to your level. Called it something like "dynamic story telling" ... so hopefully that means there are still dangerous areas low level while traveling. I literally want a place that I can't step foot in until I'm level 25.

But I agree with making it more like Morrowind. There was level scaling, but it didn't stick out as much. I mostly noticed it while the Dark Brotherhood attacks you after you rest. Their gear would gradually increase and when you hit the low 20's two of them would appear.

Completely agreed. Generated quests is something I really hoped to see (I'm still surprised they're pulling it off considering voice acting) and I don't see it done without level scaling. I mean, if all you get are high-level quests... it would suck if you're not able to do any generated quest at any level. Otherwise it's limited as possible.

They've officially stated in the Beth forums that level scaling will be "more like Fallout" than like Oblivion. Definitely a move in the right direction.

tobascodagama wrote:They've officially stated in the Beth forums that level scaling will be "more like Fallout" than like Oblivion. Definitely a move in the right direction.

That makes a bit more sense with the removal of classes and everything. But still, some people aren't going to be very happy about that if it involves XP and Perks.

tobascodagama wrote:They've officially stated in the Beth forums that level scaling will be "more like Fallout" than like Oblivion. Definitely a move in the right direction.

I haven't played Fallout 3 or NV. Is it more like Morrowinds? Or somewhere in between Morrowind and Oblivion.

As much as I love Morrowind, I must say I kind of like the fact that there will always be a challenge. being able to kill nearly everything in the main quest after completing the side quests made it 'way' to easy. As long as it isn't as extreme as Oblivion's I could see it working well. I know nothing of fallout so I can't really comment there.

Perhaps if they did it so creatures only levelled up with you to a certain point(or a lot slower then you) then you would still have that sense of 'greatness' and power that you get in Morrowind, while retaining a bit of a challenge at all levels.

Fallout uses an experience system whenever you make a kill, pass a speech check etc. When you get enough to level up, you can allocate points to the skills that you want to. It lets you build a character tailored to you without constantly repeating tasks like in Oblivion. Like I said, it'll be very different and possibly too much, but if Bethesda can pull it off, it'll be a lot better.

this is not a japanese RPG were the enemies have a set level ,the only problem i had whit oblivion level scaling was common/criminals thieves having rare equipments.

dungeon bosses is a exception.

Hopefully they'll still include some unlevel areas, like how in New Vegas the Fiends and Legionaries will get better skills, armour and weaponry, but you can still bump into a Deathclaw at level 1 if you aren't careful.

The Recent history of Bethesda's attempts at Leveling:
Morrowind: Level Scaling was mainly non-existant. Was you were level 20, you became an unkillable God. In fact, you could kill 'unkillable' Gods.
Oblivion: Level Scaling was everywhere. Everything was leveled, and there was really no use in leveling up.
Fallout 3: Level Scaling was present, but on a much smaller scale. Fights could still be a challenge at any level, but high level characters certainly had an advantage.

In my opinion it has gotten better with each attempt. I think the idea of 'Randomlishly' Generated Quests is really cool, if they pull it off, and they can't pull it off without level scaling. For the rest of the game though, I think it'll be closer to Fallout 3 than Oblivion.

Ratwar wrote:The Recent history of Bethesda's attempts at Leveling:
Morrowind: Level Scaling was mainly non-existant. Was you were level 20, you became an unkillable God. In fact, you could kill 'unkillable' Gods.
Oblivion: Level Scaling was everywhere. Everything was leveled, and there was really no use in leveling up.
Fallout 3: Level Scaling was present, but on a much smaller scale. Fights could still be a challenge at any level, but high level characters certainly had an advantage.

In my opinion it has gotten better with each attempt. I think the idea of 'Randomlishly' Generated Quests is really cool, if they pull it off, and they can't pull it off without level scaling. For the rest of the game though, I think it'll be closer to Fallout 3 than Oblivion.

If that's how it is I will be more than happy with it. I do like the challenge, but I don't want to have to fight for my life every time I encounter a wolf.

Mr. Mischief wrote:

Ratwar wrote:The Recent history of Bethesda's attempts at Leveling:
Morrowind: Level Scaling was mainly non-existant. Was you were level 20, you became an unkillable God. In fact, you could kill 'unkillable' Gods.
Oblivion: Level Scaling was everywhere. Everything was leveled, and there was really no use in leveling up.
Fallout 3: Level Scaling was present, but on a much smaller scale. Fights could still be a challenge at any level, but high level characters certainly had an advantage.

In my opinion it has gotten better with each attempt. I think the idea of 'Randomlishly' Generated Quests is really cool, if they pull it off, and they can't pull it off without level scaling. For the rest of the game though, I think it'll be closer to Fallout 3 than Oblivion.

If that's how it is I will be more than happy with it. I do like the challenge, but I don't want to have to fight for my life every time I encounter a wolf.

Creatures should have specific level caps. I'm not sure if this was implemented in Oblivion (if it was, i didn't notice), but say wolves should only be able to go up to level 8 or so. That way, you won't find any god-like wolves that can maul your face when you just chopped off a dragon's head with your teeth (just going for a hyperbole here, not saying this would happen...although how cool would that be? )

Epic creatures should be leveled much nearer to your level cap though, so fighting dragons will always be challenging and won't become a trivial chore like killing daedra in Morrowind's endgame.

As sad as this news makes me, I believe that Bethesda can make it work if they go about it properly. Level scaling was in New Vegas, but it was more logical and much less annoying than Oblivion's leveling system. If they can improve upon New Vegas' system, then I will be content with level scaling in Skyrim.

Also, I completely agree with certain creatures having level caps. Random bear/wolf/cougar/flying pig shouldn't be able to kill me if I'm level 20 and in full armor. That makes no sense.

Veck wrote:Fallout uses an experience system whenever you make a kill, pass a speech check etc. When you get enough to level up, you can allocate points to the skills that you want to. It lets you build a character tailored to you without constantly repeating tasks like in Oblivion. Like I said, it'll be very different and possibly too much, but if Bethesda can pull it off, it'll be a lot better.

There is a difference between a leveling system and a scaling system. Bethesda will probably stick with the standard TES skill-based leveling system, rather than relying on Fallout's XP system, and instead implement just the more balanced scaling system from Fallout.

The other key part of the Fallout 3 scaling system was that gear didn't change as much. A Raider always had Raider armour, hunting rifles, melee weapons, etc. You'd never run into a Raider wearing power armour or anything like you had in Oblivion with Bandits wearing Glass and Daedric. Meanwhile, Brotherhood of Steel and Outcasts would always be wearing power and wielding energy weapons and big guns. The main thing scaling changed was the random encounters. At high level, the random encounter spots would spawn larger groups, and certain creatures don't start spawning as random encounters (like Deathclaws -- though there are still fixed places they spawn at low level) until you reach certain levels.

New Vegas added on top of that by having leveled regions. There are some places you can reach very easily at the start of the game that would still be a challenge for high-level characters. (I-15. )

My guess is that, for Skyrim, Bethesda are going to follow the Fallout 3 and New Vegas model more than the Oblivion one.

Dlarsh wrote:There is a difference between a leveling system and a scaling system. Bethesda will probably stick with the standard TES skill-based leveling system, rather than relying on Fallout's XP system, and instead implement just the more balanced scaling system from Fallout.

In the Bethesda Podcast featuring Todd Howard, he said that the learn-by-doing aspect is core to the Elder Scrolls experience. So, yeah, it's really unlikely we'll get XP-based leveling in Skyrim. (Although the Oblivion system could use an overhaul in other regards anyway. Being forced to do Efficient Leveling kinda sucks.)

Let's stop the whining about level scaling Todd Howard has clearly stated that level scaling in Skyrim is very similar to the one in Fallout 3.

So it'll be great

Ratwar wrote:The Recent history of Bethesda's attempts at Leveling:
Morrowind: Level Scaling was mainly non-existant. Was you were level 20, you became an unkillable God. In fact, you could kill 'unkillable' Gods.
Oblivion: Level Scaling was everywhere. Everything was leveled, and there was really no use in leveling up.
Fallout 3: Level Scaling was present, but on a much smaller scale. Fights could still be a challenge at any level, but high level characters certainly had an advantage.

In my opinion it has gotten better with each attempt. I think the idea of 'Randomlishly' Generated Quests is really cool, if they pull it off, and they can't pull it off without level scaling. For the rest of the game though, I think it'll be closer to Fallout 3 than Oblivion.

In Morrowind, level scaling is more frequent than you might think. The random encounter tables cap the "wandering monster" power level to a level appropriate to the player (so no random encounters with Ascended Sleepers at level 1). Fixed encounters (such as quest goals) are usually non-levelled. I think that this method is absolutely the right way to go - the game should not make major endboss enemies a "balanced encounter" at low levels. Oblivion's level scaling is also what creates the levelling problem, where levelling up with non-combat skills makes you weaker relative to the world around you; Morrowind has almost exactly the same levelling system, but with less level-scaling, levelling up is always a benefit for the player - as it should be (you're supposed to be rewarded with a level for using your class skills, not made to struggle to survive). What adds insult to injury in Oblivion is that at the very highest levels, levelled-up enemies are just hit point sponges anyway, so the scaling system sacrifices believability just to make more boring fights! I think that Oblivion's scaling is inferior to Morrowind's in almost every possible way.

The one problem Morrowind has with its scaling - and it is just one problem - is that at the highest levels, the game's monster list doesn't have anything that can stand up to the player (that was fixed in Tribunal, but that doesn't help the core game in Vvardenfell). Even if Bethesda had added Oblivion-style level scaling (but nothing else) to Morrowind, that problem would have remained. Fix that by adding more high-powered monsters and toughening up bosses, and Morrowind's system would be spot on. Unfortunately, Bethesda threw the baby out with the bathwater (like they always do - it's their greatest weakness IMO) and created the much-mocked full level scaling of Oblivion.