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I have a somewhat theoretical question. Let's say I've maxed out all of my Attributes except for Luck, which had been ignored this whole time and kept at say, 50. I still have major skills to increase, and can therefore still level up. However, will the game let me?

The uesp tells me:

If all your attributes are maxed, you are unable to level...

and I'm wondering if you can still level with only 1 attribute available to raise, Luck. I guess the actual attribute doesn't matter.. What if you only had two available to raise, could you still level?

Yes, you can continue to level until the attributes are all maxed out (provided all your major skills don't max out before that, but if that happens, jail is always an option).

Cool! Thanks Leilah. I was getting a little worried because my attributes are finally getting pretty high and was wondering if I was hurting myself in the end. But there is hope with my lame 51 luck!

I'd like to add to my leveling theories... Sorry if this is an absolute horrible post, everyone!

If my logic is correct, a level 30 PC with maxed attributes compared to a level 40 with maxed attributes is actually in the advantage. This is because the NPCs will all have lower attributes when you are at the lower level. For example, an NPC in the Knight class would have a Strength of around 30*3=90, and the one when you are at level 40 would have a Strength of around 40*3=120 (-->100?). Therefore the +5/+5/+5 method is superior to the +5/+5/+1 method since you can max out all of your attributes EXCEPT luck at a lower level?

I guess the real question is if a higher luck will offset being a maxed at a higher level with harder NPCs. Hm.

Well, after studying the Luck page and Talk:Luck page, I have come to the conclusion that it is better to be at a level 30 PC with maxed out attributes except for a 50 luck, than even a level 31 PC with maxed attributes and 100 Luck. But that's just my opinion. The possibly of winning 200 gold by betting at the arena, or having a 6% chance of a 1-hit-k.o. with Mehrunes Razor doesn't appeal to me at all.

And since Luck stops boosting skills beyond 100, why bother if you can max out at a lower level?


I now propose an "Efficient-Efficient" method of leveling, one that combats the "leveling problem" even more. It is the +5/+5/+5 method, however, you must max out your attributes at the lowest level possible. I'm not even sure how you would do this... The major skills of an attribute would have to be in sync with the attribute and max out at the same time. For example, if Blade is my only major skill tied to the Strength attribute, the ideal situation would be to have them at the exact same number the whole time, and max out at 100 at the same time... That way, you boost the attribute as fast as possible, but also you don't waste any extra skill points left over in your Blade major skill that will give you even ONE major skill boost towards leveling up.

So THEN... I guess it would be best to have one and only one major skill in each attribute category...

I haven't worked out how character creation, class, birth signs, etc. will come into play. And maybe 25 would be the best level to be at, since that's where alot of leveled items max out at. It needs alot more research. And I need alot more sleep.

But am I completely wrong in my thinking?

The only Attribute that will bite you in the behind for not being raised quickly is Endurance. When you level up, 1/10th of your endurance is added to your health, but not retroactively.
Low strength is a nuisance because of encumbrance. Low agility is not dangerous at lower levels, as less foes will make the stunning power attacks - or at least in my experience. Raising your Intelligence improves your magicka but just in total, rather than at levelup.

What you are saying about luck makes total sense to me. It is useful if you decide to one day pick up a blunt weapon and have no blunt skill, etc. I don't know how it applies to magic.
The game doesn't generally have random critical hits, otherwise it'd be more useful.

True, having high health is important. Luckily I raised Endurance and strength almost every time I leveled. I still think however being in the mid-to-low 30's maxed will better than in the 40's maxed. Yes you would have higher health, but think of how much of a difference it makes NPCs and creatures..

I'm starting to consider "over-leveling" on purpose. My Intelligence, for example, is in the 70's, and Conjuration, my only Intelligence-based major Skill, is in the 40's. If I keep leveling with the +5 to Intelligence and Conjuration (and +5 to another Intelligence-based minor skill to even get the +5 bonus in Intelligence), that means my Intelligence would max out at level 100 while Conjuration is left at 70. That's 30 more Major skill points for me to increase Conjuration, or 3 more levels. Or 3*3=+9 to that random NPC's Strength who is in the Knight class, which is pretty significant in my opinion. Of course I could stop using Conjuration once my Intelligence max's out, but what's the fun in that? I did choose it as a major skill, after all.

So... still not sure which end is best but we'll see.

I just play the game and level like I happen to level. If I want a specific attribute up, I give it some attention.
Except Endurance, which I've attempted to pursue, and maxed it out around lvl 30 or so.

My strength is max, but neither my blade or hand-to-hand is, and likewise Speed is maxed but not acrobatics or athletics. Hmm. I guess that means I HAVE to practise other skills to gain proper boosts at levelup.

I didn't read every detail of what you wrote, but here's what I have to say on leveling. You know UESP has pages on efficient power-leveling, right? You are discussing things that have already been covered in detail.
This is efficient leveling, commonly referred to as power-leveling.
This is under leveling, keeping your character at low levels throughout the game.

Personally I feel that power-leveling (and attributes themselves) are overrated in this game. Instead I choose to focus on my skills, both major and minor. Once you have acquired an Expert skill in Blade, Block, and [preferred] Armor, your Strength and Agility attributes really mean very little. Especially if you've also become an Expert in Restoration or Alchemy skills, in which case temporarily boosting your attributes (such as Agility if you're constantly being tossed around) is a simple process. Focusing on skills is a far simpler task than power-leveling because it requires only two rules: 1) use your valued skills as much as possible, and 2) never, ever level up without having trained MINOR SKILLS the full five times.

Unlike power-leveling, skill-focusing (as I call it) actually ADDS to the realism of the game: forcing yourself to fully train before leveling means you're constantly running short on gold, or at least it does for me. As your skills progressively get higher training becomes more and more expensive, often forcing you to remain at a lower level until your can 'afford' to level. Ever since I understood how the leveling system worked (e.g. my second character) this is how I've played. What do others have to say about this method of gameplay?

Hi Prophet!

Yes I was aware of the Leveling, Under leveling, and Efficient Leveling uesp wiki pages and discussions. But they still didn't satisfy me completely. I guess what I was trying to create was a hybrid between the two. It is initially the +5/+5/+5 method, and attempts to max out all attributes as fast as possible. But then once maxed out, Leveling is basically stopped, so that enemies don't get any stronger. Or, one could stop at whatever level they see fit and then not sleep until all their major skills are maxed.

Of course this is only for those interested in the nit-picky details. This is my third character, and so I am being extremely picky...

I will have to disagree with you when you say:

Once you have acquired an Expert skill in Blade, Block, and [preferred] Armor, your Strength and Agility attributes really mean very little

Having a Blade with base 15 damage, at 100 Strength and 100 Blade gives an attack of about 16 whereas a Strength of only 50 in the same situation gives an attack of 12.75. But of course if this isn't a large enough difference, to hell with it, right? True, your Blade skill does give a higher multiplier than your Strength attribute (x1.7 for a 100 Blade opposed to a x1.25 for a 100 Strength). Also, some people don't like to deal with healing themselves all the time or spending time making potions. And if you are an expert in Alchemy, you could sell your Restore Fatigue potions made after visiting a normal-sized farm at such a high price, higher than any dungeon loot could give you, that paying to train at higher levels is a snap.

When you are an Alchemy master, you may not bother with Alchemy anymore :/ That's just my experience.

Having a Blade with base 15 damage, at 100 Strength and 100 Blade gives an attack of about 16 whereas a Strength of only 50 in the same situation gives an attack of 12.75. But of course if this isn't a large enough difference, to hell with it, right? True, your Blade skill does give a higher multiplier than your Strength attribute (x1.7 for a 100 Blade opposed to a x1.25 for a 100 Strength). Also, some people don't like to deal with healing themselves all the time or spending time making potions. And if you are an expert in Alchemy, you could sell your Restore Fatigue potions made after visiting a normal-sized farm at such a high price, higher than any dungeon loot could give you, that paying to train at higher levels is a snap.

Well to each his own... I don't study the numbers as you do.

krisCrash wrote:When you are an Alchemy master, you may not bother with Alchemy anymore :/ That's just my experience.

I... speechless.

Oh yeah. I have a full set of Master equipment (actually several copies of some), a cabinet full of ingredients to the point where it's starting to load slow (also lol 204 daedra hearts), and I don't touch it anymore. Got some nice recipes? x3
I could do it for money but I have 1.8 million septims already

I've made potions that restore over 1k magicka (over a minute), does anybody even have that much?

And likewise, after mastering Armourer, I had to remind myself to still repair - oops!