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I have a question for you all.

Since I am curious about what your opinions are,

Do the ends justify the means or do the means justify the ends?

End justifies means. /topic

Stealing a loaf of bread is bad. But if you use that loaf of bread to feed your poor and starving family is a different story.

You get extra Karma points if it's someone else's poor family

Kestral wrote:End justifies means. /topic

Stealing a loaf of bread is bad. But if you use that loaf of bread to feed your poor and starving family is a different story.

and what if the person you stole it from is poorer?

is the end justified when his child dies of starvation?

Dark Lord wrote:

Kestral wrote:End justifies means. /topic

Stealing a loaf of bread is bad. But if you use that loaf of bread to feed your poor and starving family is a different story.

and what if the person you stole it from is poorer?

is the end justified when his child dies of starvation?

One child or a whole family?

so you are saying that the death of one child doesnt matter if you feed your own family?

you are saying that you would take the selfish route and not share with the family that is worse off than you?

Dark Lord wrote:so you are saying that the death of one child doesnt matter if you feed your own family?

you are saying that you would take the selfish route and not share with the family that is worse off than you?

If you didn't know.

and is that justified?

I dont see how it is.

Dark Lord wrote:and is that justified?

I dont see how it is.

Not all ends justify things you know. Sometimes nothing justifies anything.

I know. It makes me sad.

Though I won't start getting all cynical like some people have done.

Kessy wrote:Sometimes nothing justifies anything.

Oh, well, if you're going to go on like that, you might as well not discuss anything at all!

Dark Lord wrote:I know. It makes me sad.

Though I won't start getting all cynical like some people have done.

Don't knock it, sweetheart. It's not a pity thing; it's a survival thing.

This is gong to descend into religious debate, isn't it?

Ah well, I'll get my point in. No, the ends do not justify the means because you can't kill four million people just to save your family. I'm talking, of course, about a certain dictator.

In order to facilitate a civil interaction, I would advise all who respond to remove emotions from thought when discussing this issue. It works wonders when you don't want to sound like a ranting lunatic on a soap box.

Please leave religion out as much as possible.
This is mostly about your opinion on what is justified in the world.

If you steal it from a rich guy and give it to a poor guy it is still bad but it has goof intentions but if you steal it from a poor guy and give it to another poor guy it is still pretty bad but not as good as stealing from rich and if you steal from a poor person and giving it to a rich person that is pretty much murder with intent to kill and deserves jail time.

What about rich to person to rich person? I'd think that's considered a job

ace62394 wrote:You get extra Karma points if it's someone else's poor family

yes you do

but yes if you steal bread/ clothes its wrong BUT if you are helping your poor, homeless, starving 107 year old great great grandmother it doesnt count

-Sonix

ethics looks at the big picture

it is a path guided by a respect for the truth (morality) and experience

why not share the loaf

If your grannny is 107 years old she's likely to die soon anyway, better give the bread to someone else or not steal it at all. Let the old bat starve.
^There should be an emoticon at the end of that line.
Anyway, whether or not the ends justify the means depends entirely on the ends, the means and the motivation.
It's a completely subjective thing. Personally, I think there are ends that justify any means, but others may think differently.

Dark Lord wrote:the means justify the ends?

That's not ethic. Silly doogus.

Yes it is.

I am asking you to explain what you think is right or wrong.

I'll start with a very famous quote from a man whom I will refer to as Dr. Mallard:
"The ethical man knows that it is wrong to cheat on his wife, but the moral man will not do it."

That said, ethics are subjective because ethics are taught, not instinctive. Instinctively, man
will do what is right for himself. Because of this, if the end is self-righteous, then by an ethical
standard, no means may justify it. Alternatively, if the means end up covering the man in light,
but the end is in order to assist another, then the means are justified by the end.

Ultimately, justification is in the eyes of the beholder, so any argument is pretty much futile.

I think ethicaly it is wrong to steal from anyone, for whatever reason. But however i also think that ethically it is expected of myself to do whatever i can to prevent poverty. In other words i dont think that some poor guy should steal to eat, i think tat i personally should prevent him from needing to steal. Do you guys understand?

Ultimately, justification is in the eyes of the beholder, so any argument is pretty much futile.

If that is true then our society has no basic standard for ethics and laws are meaningless. I think that people with similar ethics got together to make a country called the United States of America. Thats how these things naturally happen, people with similar ethics group together and support each other. Societies are formed and laws are created.

Trying to do only good is one of the major problems of the world. It doesn't solve anything. Always choose the lesser of two evils, if theres a good choice or not, it's generally the most effective and efficient choice.

The Most Unholy wrote:Trying to do only good is one of the major problems of the world. It doesn't solve anything. Always choose the lesser of two evils, if theres a good choice or not, it's generally the most effective and efficient choice.

So you are saying only choose the lesser of two evils but doing good is bad, isnt that slightly contradictory? help me understand what you are saying.