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I created this to head off an off-topic discussion on the Elder Scrolls Themselves topic. While the Nerevarine is a Morrowind character, the concept itself can span large portions of TES Lore. This topic is, as the title suggests, a place to discuss any component of the Incarnation of Nerevar that you see fit, be it what happened to him/her, or which title is more appropriate

just for reference, here's the background on the discussion for any who want to join.

kertaw48 wrote:

chromalfean wrote:

Known heroes
The Hero of Arena (better known as the Eternal Champion)
The Hero of Daggerfall
The Hero of Battlespire
The Hero of Morrowind (better known as the Nerevarine and the Bloodskaal)
The Hero of Oblivion (better known as the Champion of Cyrodiil, Divine Crusader, and Madgod of the Shivering Isles)

for morrowind, they left out "hortator"

They should be called UNknow heroes...
Also I think by Nerevarine they meant the fulfilment of the Nerevarine Prophecies not the guy that the Ashlanders called the Nerevarine...

And were are the others?

chromalfean wrote:but becoming hortator was part of the nerevarine prophesies, as well ...

Cactus wrote:That's the thing, being Horator is PART of the prophecy, just a step in the culmination of becoming Neravarine. That's why I don't think it's listed there. It'd be vaguely like the Oblivion version saying "Chamption of Cyrodiil, Knight Brother, Duke of Mania, Madgod, etc"

chromalfean wrote:sorry, cactus, but I don't remember it that way ... hortator and nerevarine went hand-in-hand ... both equal parts of the prophesy ... that the character would unite all dunmer, both ashlanders and great houses alike, under one banner to oppose and defeat dagoth ur ... I remember that being the prophesy. to do what no one else had ever been able to successfully do, become hortator by uniting all three great houses, basically being named hortator of each one and then named nerevarine by doing the same with all the ashlander tribes ... and by fulfilling both requirements, he would become the "Incarnate" ... that's how the main quest is broken down anyway ... that's why it's called "The Path of the Incarnate" ...



I think the confusion comes from the fact that in both games (morrowind and oblivion), the term "Nerevarine" is analogously (mis)used to refer to the "Incarnate", probably due to the fact that the "Incarnate" is supposed to be the (re)incarnation of Lord Indoril Nerevar, whom the ashlanders revere, and play a large part in (the preservation of) the old prophesies, therefore, the terms get used interchangeably. it might also be more natural to call someone who is supposed to be the living (re)incarnation of Nerevar by the title of "Nerevarine", than it is to refer to them as the "Incarnate", but that doesn't necessarily make the usage correct.

kertaw48 wrote:I don't think the term is misused...

Btw. there are constelations on the Elder Scrolls but the real ones:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Elder_Scroll

chromalfean wrote:ok, let me try to explain it another way ... hortator + nerevarine = incarnate ... there, now does that make more sense? so by referring to someone in a titular sense by a singular lower title is incorrect usage, especially when they hold other titles of equal or greater value. this would only be appropriate in/among social settings where the lower title is more relevant, i.e. nerevarine among ashlanders, hortator among great houses, but incarnate is still the correct general title for individual or unaffiliated faction referral ...

Cactus wrote:Then why does it, in-game, say that the reincarnation of Neravar is known as the Neravarine, not the Incarnate?

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first off, cactus, I'm not disagreeing with you, in spite of the fact that you seem to be ignoring my points and the references to back them up. kertaw made the same observation early on that "Nerevarine" was used as the term/title for the one who would fulfill the Nerevarine Prophesies. this only goes to further prove my point that the term/title is used in conjunction with the Nerevarine Prophesies by the Nerevarine Cult, Ashlanders and those associated with the prophesy like Almalexia and Vivec, which is appropriate usage, just like the title of "Hortator" is the correct usage among the Great Houses. I still contend that outside those factions, "Incarnate" would be the correct usage of the title. I would like to ask though that you provide a reference to determine what the affiliation was. who said it, when and where? I didn't have so much of a problem with the usage in morrowind since the whole game/plot/story revolved around the Nerevarine Prophesies, but the reference in Oblivion is what I think would be incorrect. plus, pointing out that the terms were used interchangeably in-game doesn't address my point that I acknowledged this to begin with, but contended that the usage was possibly incorrect. this is basically like me saying "they used the term incorrectly in-game", and you responding with "yeah, but they used the term in-game" ... ... you're making a circular argument that begs the question of what was the context in which it was used? I could just as easily respond with a counter-argument of "why does 'The Path of the Incarnate' involve becoming/being named 'Hortator' and 'Nerevarine'?" both are in-game references that seem to back up our respective points, but which one is correct? my contention to this is that it's only correct usage based on the context in which it is used, but from the wiki standpoint which started all this, the correct reference to the hero and main character would be either "Incarnate" or "Incarnate and Nerevarine/Hortator" since the title of "hortator" is equal in status among the great houses as is the title of "nerevarine" (and Bloodskaal? didn't even go into that reference. what was up with that? had NOTHING to do with the Nerevarine Prophesies OR the main quest. "bloodskaal" simply means 'friend of the skaal' ... paraphrasing, but something to that effect, and is simply the title given by the skaal for helping them along in the bloodmoon quest. about as relevant to the hero of morrowind as being named "chieftain of thirsk".).

If I may, Nerevarine is actually a more valid title than Hortator, and is in fact equal to the title of Incarnate (they're really one-and-the-same). Allow me to explain my reasoning.

First: Nerevarine = Incarnate, the word was specifically created as a name/title for the reincarnation of Nerevar (unlike Hortator, which basiclly just means a war leader)

Second: In the forth and fifth trials, when you must be named Hortator of each of the Great Houses and be acknowledged as the Nerevarine by the four Ashlander tribes, the quests are slighlty different in purpose (i.e. you aren't just given a title by each political faction, there is a deeper meaning behind them).

For the Houses, each one names you as their own personal Hortator, meaning that at the end of the quest, you aren't a single "The" Hortator, but simply hold the Hortator title for each of the three houses. The Ashlander tribes, on the other hand, are simply acknowledging that you are the true Nerevarine. The key difference is that the Ashlanders aren't claiming you as their own personal Nerevarine, but rather displaying their clan's belief that you are the real deal. It's a bit convoluted, but I'd be happy to explain in greater detail.