TES:V, "What about Morrowind?"

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Read the new supplemental material. It's not a confirmed dev post yet but it seems very similar to some ideas I've heard tossed around before.

Indoril is greatly diminished as a House , but the author of that tract makes an excellent point. The Ordinators were never simply town guards or crusaders. Their solemn duties were many, and one was keeping the dead. With all the casualties of Red Year and the Argonian Invasion, the remaining Indorils have been very busy.

Honestly, I love the idea of the new Houses like Sul and Jaroon more than simply trying to regurgitate new forms of the defeated Houses. It's a breath of fresh air, and it makes sense considering all the upheavals Dunmer culture has had over the last few centuries.

[Da_BossMaN69]

I tried reading that, but I wasn't too interested in it, what is it exactly (the post)? A fanfic/speculation or is that solid evidence of what actually has happened to the Houses.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

It's what Temple Zero would call Monkey Truth. I know some of it is based on actual existing lore notes the devs use that isn't fleshed out yet - at least some of the names. I believe some of the names and concepts surrounding the Dunmer post Red Year were handed to Keyes for consideration when writing his novels. The information he was allowed to see has never been publicly posted but it was probably extensive and contained many things between Oblivion and Skyrim we haven't seen yet, as well as things beyond Skyrim, and things in Tamriel's past.

House Sul and House Jaroon have existed as concepts since 2008 or so, at least, because I believe they were part of those notes Keyes looked over. I can't say for certain that Bethesda will decide to go with them for future lore or stick to what casual fans know, but there's a definite precedent for those two. It's a combination of a strong hunch and the little bit of air that slides between tightly parsed lips - people who can't really give anything away but do if you read between the lines. Michael Kirkbride included them in his Loveletter from the Fifth Era way back in '07 or '08, and he's implied he and Keyes write from the same source material before, and that "Keyes is one of us" in reference to the lore writers for TES - "Us" being both guys like MK and the current devs.

I'll admit there's no direct, tangible link between the thread I posted and a developer, but certain words and ideas that person used probably come from a notebook of potential lore that while I'd love to get my greedy little hands on, people like you or I have almost zero chance of ever seeing or hearing much about.




[Slight addendum - "Monkey Truth" is often misdefined by people. A lot of people think it's hidden official lore or really good fanfiction. The most accurate way people use it would be "Lore so good Bethesda wishes they thought of it." Some of this Monkey Truth occasionally makes it into games and in-game-books. A lot of MK's stuff between Oblivion and Skyrim was given a nod in Skyrim, therefore canonizing it. The thing about the link I posted is that it contains a fleshed out version of little side notes Bethesda probably had. They're under no obligation to follow good fan fiction, of course. Not even Monkey Truth. In this case it's more like art imitating life, because it's fan fiction possibly based on actual official lore notes, but since the new Houses haven't been named in an official Bethesda text or piece of dialogue in a game yet, or even a published novel, and both the Keyes novels and Skyrim chose to be vague about the status of Dunmer House culture, it's subject to change and should be taken for what it is right now rather than something completely canon.]

[Da_BossMaN69]

I mean personally I don't like the change, It would get too complicated 6 houses would have been good enough for me, I can't get as interested in 20 something other houses, at some points the personalities and qualities of each house would have to over-lap.

[OblivionDuruza]

I don't know, I rather like the change, I mean, the number of Houses has approximately doubled yes, but if you look at it, there are 5 totally new Houses, Houses Jaroon, Sul, Panud, Velms and Sathil, 2 New Houses that are not permitted on the Council, Houses Ouada and Thiralas, and the remains of Houses Indoril, Hlaalu and Dres, plus House Skaal and House Indarys. There's a lot of variance there, I don't really see them as overlapping or being the same thing repackaged.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

If Bethesda does decide to use this material - or if it's based on their notes which I suspect it might roughly be - they might still simplify things for the sake of a DLC. One thing that I immediately noticed is that this Census took place several decades before the events of Skyrim. In a few short decades, a lot of political and societal upheaval can take place, especially among a population like the Dunmer.

For instance, in the few short years between Morrowind and Oblivion, as discussed in the Third PGE and some NPC dialogue from Oblivion, there was a lot of restructuring of power among the original five Houses of Morrowind. It's plausible that by the time we see Morrowind or Solsthiem in a game again, the number of Houses may be reduced back down to five or so due to Houses becoming defunct or setting aside their differences and joining for the sake of convenience.

In the Loveletter itself only Sul and Jaroon are mentioned, and it was posted on the forums some years before this newest story. (It's set in the Fifth Era, however.)

[OblivionDuruza]

I can certainly envisage a few things from my readings of it. House Hlaalu may return to the Council upon the resolution of the Odai/Ilmeni conflict, and they may or may not reincorporate House Indarys into the Great House. House Deshaan will probably also be reinstated tot he Council.

[House of the Wolf]

(Might be necroposting here, but why create an entirely new thread for this particular topic? No one's added anymore content/info from Dragonborn)

Dragonborn added a whole slew of new information regarding the Dunmer:

--House Hlaalu is not only severely weakened, but removed from the Council entirely
--House Redoran kept the Argonian-surge at bay, and allowed many from southern Resdayn to flee north
--Much of former Resdayn has slowly begun to re-populate, but most of Vvardenfell is pretty much uninhabitable
--The Morag Tong is mostly relegated to brigand/banditry at this point


Anyone else gather/discern any more info?

[Avron the S'wit]

It is indeed necroposting - a whole year old. In the future, if you want to resurrect a thread, PM a moderator before posting or if you're not sure. As for now, I'll allow the thread to stay open, but in the future keep that in mind.

[Yurt Dweller]

Dumb question time.

Was Vvardenfell destroyed in the time of Skyrim? And when Vvardenfell was destroyed, where did the Ashlanders go? Did they all just die?

[AngryNord]

Vvardenfell was destroyed a few years after Oblivion. It isn't really known, I think, what happened to the Ashlanders although I'd suppose the majority of them perished...

[Avron the S'wit]

Yurt, the wiki can help you with a great Fourth Era timeline. Vvardenfell is destroyed in 4E5, whereas Skyrim starts at 4E201. It has been gone for quite some time at the beginning of the game.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Not destroyed - just damaged badly by volcanic activity and the impact of the Ministry.

It's actually been at least partially repopulated as of the events of Skyrim. Balmora is being rebuilt, and apparently Ald'Ruhn already has been. House Redoran is now the ruling House of Morrowind in general, and moved the capital from Mournhold to Blacklight. They presumably own most Dunmer lands now, including Vvardenfel.

[Apollo Densin]

My question is this. Is Morrowind still part of the empire? Adril Arano states that there is great hate for the empire since they pulled out of morrowind during the oblivion crisis and You do not see any Dunmer in the legion, If they where still a part of the empire you would at least think we would see a few

[Pilaf The Defiler]

There are several races you don't see in the Legion that would logically be there by lore.

Morrowind is very bitter towards the Empire currently. That sentiment is clear in Dragonborn and its new books and character dialogue. Whether or not Morrowind has left the Empire is still up to debate, though. It's never outright stated.

[Br3admax]

When you take the Rift during the Civil War questline, it makes it sound like Morrowind may have not officially down anything, but the Legion wants to be positioned there just encase they need to invade and take control back.

[Minor Edits]

There are several races you don't see in the Legion that would logically be there by lore.

This is kind of annoying to me, especially in regards to Orcs. We've been given several indications that the Legion should be full of Orcs, but there are exactly zero Orc Legionnaires in Skyrim. It's possible they'll address this in the future. Just a simple line about where Orcs in the Legion are concentrated would do. But right now, it's a bit of a contradiction.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Lord of Souls makes it clear there are several Orc Legionaries, mostly because the Legion helped evacuate Orsinium after the Order of Diagna resurfaced again with a vengeance. A female Orc Legionaire figures prominently in the plot. And yes, Skyrim dialogue is chock full of references. Ghorbash USED to be in the Legion. He still has the arm bands when you meet him. That counts for something, but you don't see any active duty Orcs.

In fact, 99% of the Legion in Skyrim are Nords. Not really what we're told. The claim that's made is that Tullius had to recruit locally to bolster the ranks, not to have an army at all. If you took every Imperial NPC out who was a Nord you'd be left with Tullius and a handful of legates.

[AngryNord]

And in Oblivion there's virtually only Imperials in the legion (save for a Breton and two Nord guard commanders, an Altmer and a Redguard in the Kvatch guard, and in one of the Dark Brotherhood quests there's a Breton Legion officer, plus Altmer, Redguard, Orc, Nord and Breton legionnaires, IIRC). In Morrowind the Legion was more racially diverse, there were hardly any Dunmer, but quite a few Redguards and Orcs, a couple of Nords and at least one Khajiit IIRC.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

There were a handful of Dunmer, actually, around Gnisis mostly. A handful of Nords, usually in high ranking positions although that's not surprising. Lots of Orcs, again mostly around Gnisis. There are a few Bretons and several Redguards, and one Bosmer. No Khajiit that I recall and none listed at UESP. A few Altmer, though.

I'd imagine you'd see fewer Altmer, Bosmer and Khajiit than you used to - although they are certainly still in the Imperial army. A Khajiit served under Attrebus Mede in the Keyes novels, and Legate Fasendil in Skyrim is an anti-Thalmor Altmer.

[Apollo Densin]

Ya It just seems strange that there are no dunmer in the legion is all since Morrowind is relativity close by and there are probably plenty of people who would join the legion in the refugee camps

[Pilaf The Defiler]

In Skyrim?

There's a Dunmer Legate named Sevan Telendas in Winterhold.

[House of the Wolf]

In comparison to when Skyrim first released, the Dunmer appear to be in a much strong position than first thought. The picture painted 17 months ago had me thinking they were all in exodus--being any bit of run-down/out by the Argonians, scattered as refugees anywhere they were accepted, or simply killed by the destruction of Vvardenfell.

But Dragonborn paints a far less bleak picture, making it seem like those who've stayed/returned have retaken most of Resdayn, are successfully rebuilding, if they haven't already rebuilt, and are steadily trying to repopulate Vvardenfell.

Either the writers had this type of hope/resiliency in mind when they followed this storyline, or they knew that nostalgic fans felt like the Dunmer got snubbed and wanted to make up for it (or both?). I kinda dig it, either way.

[Apollo Densin]

In Skyrim?

There's a Dunmer Legate named Sevan Telendas in Winterhold.

Never saw him before so thank you for that. But ya playing dragonborn right now and it does seem as though things are going a lot better. Even if the empire is hated it also looks like they might stay with the empire which unlike the stormcloaks might realize that morrowind does need the empire at this time especially against the Thalmor

[House of the Wolf]

Well, the Empire helped butter their relationship a tiny bit by helping to escort refugees into Skyrim (although, they probably still remember the Empire wasn't truly there when Black Marsh invaded in the first place).