How Much Power do the Thalmor Actually Have?

[Anonymous98223]

I was referring to the first Titus Mede.

[Hissien]

I think this is the point where we all ask "what was i arguing about again?".

[Anonymous98223]

your right they lost most after the septims died, I do not deny this, but since then they only got WORSe

This was my argument, Wolfie had claimed that the empire had only gotten worse since they Oblivion Crisis, but if that where true they never would have survived the Great War. Because of Titus Mede things improved for quite awhile.

[Br3admax]

To bad no province came back now, the fact of the matter is Titus Mede II fought the Great War, and he lost provinces.

[Wolfie]

This was my argument, Wolfie had claimed that the empire had only gotten worse since they Oblivion Crisis, but if that where true they never would have survived the Great War. Because of Titus Mede things improved for quite awhile.

We only talked about the "getting back land they lost"

What happen was this, the Septim dynstay (sometimes called empire) died out, the empire still went on with out them, the Mede's took over with ALL provinces that where still part of the empire at the time, so he did not regain the provinces like you said, as you can see by not seeing any metion of lossing provinces the way you said they did.

In short the Mede empire has NOT regained any land in anyshpe or form unless you count the IC.

[Anonymous98223]

I think it hardly could of been considered a unified Empire, sure maybe it was officially, I admit that I was probably wrong when I had said that Hammerfall, Skyrim, and High Rock had left the Empire at the time. However it was crumbling, and I get the vibe from the TES novels that Cyrodiil was divided, and The Imperial City was ruled by someone else for awhile, and there's no mention of him being an "Emperor" to my knowledge. Mean while it seems that High Rock and Hammerfall felt the need to destroy Orsinium again. If there had been any strong central government I doubt that would of happened.

I'ts unrealistic to assume Titus Mede became Emperor and then everyone suddenly supported him. I mean in the Lord of Souls there's mention of Titus fighting some ruler in Hammerfall in a duel, who later became his most trusted General or something. I don't know the circumstances of the duel or why he was there, but it seems there was some sort of Opposition. He wasn't without allies though, it seems possible the Elder Council supported him, and the Imperial Library claims Skyrim endorsed him.

But the point is, Titus Mede unified the "Empire" in a time of chaos and for awhile things got better.

[Wolfie]

I think it hardly could of been considered a unified Empire, sure maybe it was officially, I admit that I was probably wrong when I had said that Hammerfall, Skyrim, and High Rock had left the Empire at the time. However it was crumbling, and I get the vibe from the TES novels that Cyrodiil was divided, and The Imperial City was ruled by someone else for awhile, and there's no mention of him being an "Emperor" to my knowledge. Mean while it seems that High Rock and Hammerfall felt the need to destroy Orsinium again. If there had been any strong central government I doubt that would of happened.

I'ts unrealistic to assume Titus Mede became Emperor and then everyone suddenly supported him. I mean in the Lord of Souls there's mention of Titus fighting some ruler in Hammerfall in a duel, who later became his most trusted General or something. I don't know the circumstances of the duel or why he was there, but it seems there was some sort of Opposition. He wasn't without allies though, it seems possible the Elder Council supported him, and the Imperial Library claims Skyrim endorsed him.

But the point is, Titus Mede unified the "Empire" in a time of chaos and for awhile things got better.

did they really? maybe, but Titus Mede II rule is nothing but bad, which is what I'm talking about, I'd say at best Titus Mede "kept their head above water" not making it better or anything but in the end it dont matter, he is long gone and the empire is only getting worse now days

As for those fights, yes, its true, there where fights, but most of them where someone trying to take over in the Chaos, not that the empire was "split" it had ineer fighting yes, but no one officaly sucede of the ones you listed, which happen even in the Septim dynstay.
And as for no emporor, yes there was a time when they had none and they thwere ruled by the councial and someone with a diffreint name, but Mede reused the name when he took over.

[Anonymous98223]

Yeah. Heres a small snipet from the timeline on the Imperial Library, just to help clarify things a little:

After 4E 1

The Empire collapses. Most of the provinces secede from the Imperial rule.

In Elsweyr, the Mane is assassinated. A war breaks out in southern Elsweyr. Although the Imperial force still exists in the northern Elsweyr, they cannot keep the order. The Khajiit realm is in chaos. Due to the rule of a Potentate, Rimmen is relatively stable.

During Oblivion Crisis, the Hist called all the Argonian to march back to Black Marsh to defend the realm from the Daedra. After the Oblivion Crisis, as the Imperial is weakening, Black Marsh rebels and currently led by the An-Xileel and the Organism.

Mages Guild dissolves, in its role now there are two Imperial magic guilds: College of Whispers and Synod.

Source: The Infernal City.

4E 2

Sinderion gives a speech concerning the Nirnroot at the Alchemical Symposium.

Source: The Nirnroot Missive

4E 6

After the disappearance of Vivec, the power that holds the Ministry of Truth in place starts to diminish. A pair of Dunmer mages, Vuhon and Sul, among others, build the ingenium, a machine to hold the Ministry of Truth in place. During a fight between Sul and Vuhon over the soul of Sul's lover, the Ingenium explodes, catapulting them both into Oblivion. The Ministry of Truth crashes into Vivec City, creating a huge crater that immediately fills with water from the Inner Sea. The crater becomes known as theScathing Bay. The impact of the Ministry of Truth also causes the eruption of the Red Mountain. This chain of events kills thousands and remembered as the Red Year.

In Second Seed, shortly after the cataclysmic eruption of Red Mountain, the crippled Morrowind is invaded by an army of Argonians urged on by the Hist. The nation of Morrowind colapses, and the survivors of the cataclysm and the war flee to the island of Solstheim. The Argonian invasion reaches at least as far north as Red Mountain. Once they hold the province, they make no effort to colonize or rule.

Source: Lymdrenn Tenvanni's Journal, The Infernal City, Lord of Souls

4E 10

Potentate Ocato is assassinated, presumably by Thalmor agents, beginning the Stormcrown Interregnum.

The Elder Council fractures. Many people try to claim the Imperial throne, either by force of arms or by some blood claim. These include Eddar Olin and Thules the Gibbering. Violent storms ravage the Imperial City, each one with its eye at the White-Gold Tower.

The Thalmor use this discord as an opportunity to overthrow the rulets of Summurset and install themselves in their place. They purge any discidents and anyone "not of the blood of the Altmer."

Source: Rising Threat vol. 4, The Infernal City

4E 17

Titus Mede, a Colovian warlord, takes control of the Imperial City and the Empire. Skyrim endorses his ascension.

So I was wrong, those provinces seem to have remained within the Empire.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

To bad no province came back now, the fact of the matter is Titus Mede II fought the Great War, and he lost provinces.

The current Empire consists of Cyrodill, Skyrim, High Rock and Morrowind. It hasn't shrunk dramatically. It's not like it's down to one province or anything.

edit: Oh, I see that's been clarified.

[Wolfie]

Morrowind is a mess, they are about to lose skyrim.
That leaves two MAYBE,. we really dont know how High rock feels right now.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Morrowind is a mess, they are about to lose skyrim.

We hear many statements about Morrowind rebuilding in Skyrim and have no reason to assume they won't recover.

There's also no reason to assume a Stormcloak victory will be canon.

That leaves two MAYBE,. we really dont know how High rock feels right now.

We have absolutely no indication that High Rock is anywhere near seceding. None.

[Br3admax]

There's also no reason to assume a Stormcloak victory will be canon.

In all honesty, this rebellion will be old new by the news by the next game, both leaders will die, we will be there, maybe. War is booming on the horizon, and all the Children of the Empire will have to answer it's call.

[Minor Edits]

Edit- nvm, wrong thread.

[Wolfie]

We hear many statements about Morrowind rebuilding in Skyrim and have no reason to assume they won't recover.

There's also no reason to assume a Stormcloak victory will be canon.





We have absolutely no indication that High Rock is anywhere near seceding. None.

#1 No reasson to assume they will before the war, and I did not mean "lose skyrim" as they did but rather its go so bad that the reblion can happen the way it has, did not mean that they did or did not lose skyrim.


Also we have no indication that high rock is in anyway happy with the empire. None.

[Anonymous98223]

We have no indication that they are unhappy either though. We have no idea whats going on in High Rock at all right now, as far as I'm aware, we can only guess.

[Wolfie]

Which is what I meant by "we really dont know how High rock feels right now."

How on the earth did yo uget the idea I was saying they wanted to rebel?

I even said WE dont know.

[Anonymous98223]

Ok, I'm sorry. I had only read your last post there when I wrote that.

[fat boy kyle]

When Titus Mede II ascended the throne in 4E 168, he inherited a weakened empire. The glory days of the Septims were a distant memory. Valenwood and Elsweyr were gone, ceded to the Thalmor enemy. Black Marsh had been lost to Imperial rule since the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis. Morrowind had never recovered fully from the eruption of Mount Vvardenfell. Hammerfell was plagued by infighting between Crowns and Forebears. Only High Rock, Cyrodiil and Skyrim remained prosperous and peaceful.
Emperor Titus Mede had only a few short years to consolidate his rule before his leadership was put to the ultimate test.
/
ammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire.
In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell.

I'm not making a point, I just thought this might help the argument

[Wolfie]

The problem with this is its wrote by the empire, just like how anything wrotye by the empire says that the white gold was needed, stormclcoks are evil, and stromclcoks do the oppsite.


Foir exsample, i dont belive the peace trety was "hard won" The thalmor wanted this all along, the empire fell in to their trap.

[fat boy kyle]

The problem with this is its wrote by the empire, just like how anything wrotye by the empire says that the white gold was needed, stormclcoks are evil, and stromclcoks do the oppsite.


Foir exsample, i dont belive the peace trety was "hard won" The thalmor wanted this all along, the empire fell in to their trap.

It doesn't say it was needed, in fact it's quite unbiased and suggests that the empire may have been wrong to sign the treaty.

And it was certainly hard EARNED, they did after all fight off the invasion. And if you believe the Aldmeri invasion being beaten back was on purpose then you're mistaken. Why would they want to have an unsuccessful invasion after putting so much into it? Of course the Aldmeri wanted a victory, not the treaty; they just used the treaty to make the best of the situation.

[Br3admax]

It does say it was a "hard 'won' peace treaty", even though it was basically the same terms as before the war. That is not hard won, that was a pointless war that weakened the Empire to a point of doing pretty much what ever the Thalmor told them to do.

[Wolfie]

More so when the empire WOM, the thalmor army was destoyed.
It's not like the thalmor had an army still, the empire how ever did, I'm not even saying invading the thalmor, just doing what hamerfell did and gaurd form the thalmor

(I'm talking about being there, they had solders still but they would have to send them back over and all of that, andf the army they send did not even win aginst ONE province, one which had been having a cival war for a long time.

Heck the thalmor plan at first was to attack hammerfall, NOT the whole empire, but the empire did so bad (cause they did not hear the Blades out) that they decide to take it all.
They felt the empire was way weaker then it was.

[Br3admax]

Spoiler:

I kind of want to raid the Imperial City during the Great War, right now

]
Yeah the every single Thalmor soldier in Cyrodill was defeated, I still do not get this W-G.C.

[fat boy kyle]

It does say it was a "hard 'won' peace treaty", even though it was basically the same terms as before the war. That is not hard won, that was a pointless war that weakened the Empire to a point of doing pretty much what ever the Thalmor told them to do.

Of course the war did not benefit the Empire, and they could have done a lot better (listened to the blades, reject the treaty, etc.), but then again it was what the Emperor thought to be safest move. After all, if you were in his position, would you want to risk a full out war after so much devastation while your empire is in an already weak position? I would probably have played it safe and accepted the treaty (although with better terms) and begun preparations to strike back. As Skyrim takes place shortly after the war, you cannot tell what preparations or plans were in place, so you cannot say that the Empire is letting the Thalmor walk ALL over them as they may just have been biding their time.

Also, you mentioned early about high rocks relationship with the Empire. I can't remember who he represented or what his views were, but the guy that asks you to kill the Emperor in the Dark Brotherhood quest line was a Breton if that is anything to go by.

[Br3admax]

If what you said was correct, than they should have taken the bargain in the first place. But if you secede from my Empire, kill my people, destroy my city, and threaten me, you damn well better have something better than what you were giving me before the war, especially if I destroy your army. Before you say, yes I am calm. Okay back to the matter at hand, the Great War was thirty years ago, so yeah they have had time to prepare.