Miami Police commit Hate Crime

[cowleyj]

Exactly, sir, very well put mr. Cam.

[Fiar]

Even if he was doped up, a taser could have locked him down. Reaction would've been delayed, yes, but he would have succumbed pretty shortly. Unless I'm mistaken, I may be wrong in my assertion police do pack a taser with them at all times.

[cowleyj]

Tasers have been known to fail on drugged-up people. Also, as an officer a 'delayed reaction' is not enough.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Even if he was doped up, a taser could have locked him down. Reaction would've been delayed, yes, but he would have succumbed pretty shortly. Unless I'm mistaken, I may be wrong in my assertion police do pack a taser with them at all times.

No, not all officers carry tasers. Plus, some tasers are ineffective against people high on certain kinds of drugs. Oh, and the article mentions it took several shots to bring the guy down. That's a clue into how doped up he was.

[Fiar]

Tasers have been known to fail on drugged-up people. Also, as an officer a 'delayed reaction' is not enough.

Ok, I did forget that fact regarding tasers. However, the man is unarmed, he's to the point drug wise where his reactions might be slowed down, he's just a meat shield that can take abuse. So the officer probably could've subdued him and slapped a pair of cuffs on his arms and legs.

If this wouldn't have been possible, then I'm out of ideas. Since at that point it would have been either shooting him, or letting him go. And the latter wouldn't have been an option.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Sure, you try subduing a guy covered in blood, armed with a deadly weapon (teeth). and so doped up that he would resist all attempts to restrain him. It's possible, bot not easy.

[Fiar]

Point taken, I guess this would have been a more achievable idea if he had a partner with him, from what I'm reading, he was alone. And while I guess people would continue to point out ideas, really, at this point to me, it's quite simple he now had one choice.

[Dark Lord Cam]

If it makes you feel better, the officer saved a guy's life.

[DorostheConqueror]

Freedom of choice... as long as he wasn't hurting anyone... how do we know he didn't ask for his face to be eaten...??? Did anyone even bother to ask? What if it was just a mistake, and he forgot the safe word?

That was my first thought as well! It's happened before; remember the Craigslist Cannibal? In America, people are innocent until proven guilty; the police are required to give us the benefit of the doubt. What if the victim and his partner were engaged in mutually consensual act? At the very least, the police should hold off on using DEADLY FORCE until they know for sure.

The officer was entirely correct in his course of action, given the information he would have had, namely the fact that one guy is gnawing at the face of another chap...and yes, cannibalism is technically 'MURDER, with the intention of consuming the corpse', a person eating a dead body that they didn't kill is necrophagy.

Cannibalism is "technically" cannibalism. Murder is "technically" murder. I don't know where you're getting your information from, but to the best fo my knowledge there's no legal or lexical definition that says cannibalism requires an act of premeditated murder, or that cannibalism and "necrophagy" are mutually exclusive terms. We don't call the Donner Party "necrophagists", do we? When the Uruguayan rugby team was tried for cannibalism, nobody argued that the survivors intentionally caused that plane crash in order to feast on the flesh of their fallen friends. Besides, the victim's partner wasn't dead at the time of the act, so regardless of how you define them, neither "murder" nor "necrophagy" are applicable here.

He was dealing with a guy that was likely so doped up that he didn't have any control over his own actions.

Ah, and what's that called? "Mitigating circumstances"!

The law doesn't work on a one-shoe-fits-all basis. Intent and awareness are often just as important in a criminal prosecution as the "did he or didn't he" facts. This is why we have various degrees to criminal offenses (first degree murder, second degree murder etc) and why certain individuals, such as the severely mentally handicapped/ insane, can not be held to the same standards of liability as a person fully aware of the nature and consequences of his actions. It's why children enjoy certain legal protections, why some down on their luck "good guys" might be given a second chance. It's the end result of centuries of progressive legal reform, and you'd ask us to throw it all out the window without a second thought?!

I really hope that this guy was so doped up he had no control over his actions, because as far as the cops are concerned, that's about the worst scenario that could arise if and when there's a public investigation into the officer's conduct.

Do any of you have any idea how hard it would have been to take down a guy so doped up he feels no pain?

Four officers? A nightstick? A tazer? So what, big deal. This is routine stuff in the life of a cop; it's part of the training, it's part of the job. If you had cops pulling out their guns and shooting every suspect so doped up that he felt no pain, there'd be no methheads left! Half of LA would be dead and buried within a fortnight.

[Fiar]

If it makes you feel better, the officer saved a guy's life.

It does, can't really say I'm sad the doped up guy had to die though. He clearly was too far gone to recognize what he was doing in the first place.

[House of the Wolf]

Ok, I did forget that fact regarding tasers. However, the man is unarmed, he's to the point drug wise where his reactions might be slowed down, he's just a meat shield that can take abuse. So the officer probably could've subdued him and slapped a pair of cuffs on his arms and legs.

If this wouldn't have been possible, then I'm out of ideas. Since at that point it would have been either shooting him, or letting him go. And the latter wouldn't have been an option.

As stated earlier, a person on LSD or PCP feels absolutely no pain. What wasn't mentioned is the fact that all of their muscles fire without limitation, essentially creating super-humans who are no longer in control of any of their mental faculties. The training videos we watched showed men whom were completely unaffected by tasers, mace, and/or (in many cases) bullets. These people, when their on these substances, have been known to lift and drop entire ends of vehicles, and pick officers twice their size off the ground and slam them, both without effort.

Assuming that the detail about being on LSD is correct, that's the potential scenario this officer may have faced. But the fact is, we don't know the facts. From the information we do have, I would have likely done the same thing, but, again, that is absolute speculation. Unless you've been in that situation, or at least witnessed something similar, it's foolish to second guess the officer in that situation (at this time).

[Fiar]

Ok, I did forget that fact regarding tasers. However, the man is unarmed, he's to the point drug wise where his reactions might be slowed down, he's just a meat shield that can take abuse. So the officer probably could've subdued him and slapped a pair of cuffs on his arms and legs.

If this wouldn't have been possible, then I'm out of ideas. Since at that point it would have been either shooting him, or letting him go. And the latter wouldn't have been an option.

As stated earlier, a person on LSD or PCP feels absolutely no pain. What wasn't mentioned is the fact that all of their muscles fire without limitation, essentially creating super-humans who are no longer in control of any of their mental faculties. The training videos we watched showed men whom were completely unaffected by tasers, mace, and/or (in many cases) bullets. These people, when their on these substances, have been known to lift and drop entire ends of vehicles, and pick officers twice their size off the ground and slam them, both without effort.

Assuming that the detail about being on LSD is correct, that's the potential scenario this officer may have faced. But the fact is, we don't know the facts. From the information we do have, I would have likely done the same thing, but, again, that is absolute speculation. Unless you've been in that situation, or at least witnessed something similar, it's foolish to second guess the officer in that situation (at this time).

Hmm, those are some neat facts. Lord knows if the drawbacks could be eliminated, we'd effectively have super-humans walking about the Earth. Quite a scary thought.

So, even if he had a partner, the guy still would've been a threat to both officers, damned shame.

Might I ask what you were or are, being trained for, Wolf?

[House of the Wolf]

Actually, it was the military who created and tried to implement these chemicals into soldiers, because of those properties. But they found the byproducts to be too uncontrollable.

And me? A police department.

[cowleyj]

Indeed they did. The military get into many weird things don't they.

[Ragnarok]

If it makes you feel better, the officer saved a guy's life.

ok, on a serious note, this really is what it boils down to. sorry, doros, but the bottom line is that the cop walked up on a situation he read as an assault in progress. it was his sworn duty to protect and serve, which translates to stopping the assault. he warned the guy off to try to end the assault and it didn't stop. when the assault continued the officer was fully justified using deadly force to end the assault on the victim and it took a half dozen shots to finally put the perp down. end of story.

the victim is still in the hospital fighting for his life from life-threatening injuries amounting to more than half his face missing. I think I'd rather die than live through something like that.

[Fiar]

Well, we do want to give ourselves an advantage on the battlefield. Imagine thousands, tens of thousand actually, that don't feel pain, can take several hits; and can lift several times their own weight. Sorry, if the other side doesn't have that advantage, they don't stand a chance in the slightest.

@Wolf: Very cool, I do hold respect for officers.Despite the flack they inevitably get, they do try to keep everyone safe, and uphold the laws to the best of their extent. It's a thankless job, with pay that needs to be much higher than it is.

[Ragnarok]

FA, the one thing you keep touching on is the one thing that troubles me the most. using ex-military as police. those are not two mutual mindsets. the military is trained to act against an enemy force. the police are requiredd to operate in a society where everyone are citizens entiteld to equal treatment. our citizens are not our enemy and as soon as a militarized police force starts acting like its citizens are the "enemy" we have a problem.

Our Militarized Police Departments

Have American Police Become Militarized?

Are police becoming militarized?

Militarized Police: Why Is the FBI Treating Americans Like Enemy Combatants?

A Decade After 9/11, Police Departments Are Increasingly Militarized

it's like something straight out of "Robocop". I keep waiting to see "OCP".

*edit*

oh, and along the lines of drug augmentation, there was a cool pen and papaer RPG I played years ago when I was a kid that explored that very nicely with a chemically-enhanced super-soldier class called a "Juicer". it was part of "Rifts" game system by Palladium Press, but they were hardly the first. just look at Captain America and the "super-soldier" serum. Rifts Juicer's had a downside with a drastically shortened life span and drug induced psychosis making them the ultimate shock troops.

[cowleyj]

I understand the worry about a militarised police, but the threats police are dealing with are increasingly requiring such a response.

[JJKG]

I don't think anyone has taken into account (in this discussion) the mental state of the officer in the situation. Seeing one person eat another's face would probably shake almost anyone up pretty badly, so I don't think the officer can be accused of being trigger happy in lieu of the circumstances.

(On an unrelated note, this is my first post on this forum in ages, and what a surreal discussion for it to be in!)

[DorostheConqueror]

Well, we do want to give ourselves an advantage on the battlefield. Imagine thousands, tens of thousand actually, that don't feel pain, can take several hits; and can lift several times their own weight...

And who doesn't follow orders, and who has no situational awareness, and who can't shot straight, and who gets nervous and frags unarmed Hajjis, not every once in awhile, but as matter of habit... yeah, no thanks. Maybe in the Marines. I don't know what kind of military you think the US of A is running, but give me a guy who knows how to move, use cover, and can keep his rifle steady over some goofy hippie gorilla who stands around and gets shot a few dozen times while he's off in lalaland tripping balls.

[Ragnarok]

I understand the worry about a militarised police, but the threats police are dealing with are increasingly requiring such a response.

and what threats would those be cowley? that justifies such an escalation of firepower and military tactics being used on US citizens on US soil? drug-crazed flesh-eating zombies? there are no new threats that have emerged in the last several decades that cops weren't adequately dealing with decades ago. the only thing on the rise is drug cartel and gang related violence south of our borders splashing over onto US soil. you want to put the US military to good use? bring them home and turn them loose on Mexico. invade Mexico and crush the drug cartels. since they can't control their crime, it then falls to us to protect US soil.

[Deandra]

I understand the worry about a militarised police, but the threats police are dealing with are increasingly requiring such a response.

Not in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viole ... States.svg

[cowleyj]

Right-o.

[House of the Wolf]

I understand the worry about a militarised police, but the threats police are dealing with are increasingly requiring such a response.

and what threats would those be cowley? that justifies such an escalation of firepower and military tactics being used on US citizens on US soil? drug-crazed flesh-eating zombies? there are no new threats that have emerged in the last several decades that cops weren't adequately dealing with decades ago. the only thing on the rise is drug cartel and gang related violence south of our borders splashing over onto US soil. you want to put the US military to good use? bring them home and turn them loose on Mexico. invade Mexico and crush the drug cartels. since they can't control their crime, it then falls to us to protect US soil.

Might want to do your research on this, a little bit. Most major police departments carry military-standard weapons because they realized they weren't able to handle growing threats at those times (mostly through painful/deadly lessons they or other departments had to learn). And, even still, the vast majority of police still carry only a hand-gun. You have to qualify, and re-qualify to carry anything larger than a certain caliber in most departments.

I agree, to an extent, about Mexico, but it's not as clear-cut as you make it seem.

[Fiar]

FA, the one thing you keep touching on is the one thing that troubles me the most. using ex-military as police. those are not two mutual mindsets. the military is trained to act against an enemy force. the police are requiredd to operate in a society where everyone are citizens entiteld to equal treatment. our citizens are not our enemy and as soon as a militarized police force starts acting like its citizens are the "enemy" we have a problem.

I have said no such thing, nor have I even hinted as using military as police officers. If you are referring to my last post, I was talking about the potential of LSD-esque effects without the drawbacks in wars.

I didn't even hint that citizens should be treated as puppets (own wording) as well.

As for you Dors, once again, I was talking about the drug being used if it were possible to remove the drawbacks.

Guys, please read through my posts clearly. I hate Strawman arguments....