Lore General Discussion!

[Lady Nerevar]

And then un-make yourself because of the knowledge you find

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I'd probably be a goat farmer or a dock worker. Let's keep it real.

[Alarin Telvanni]

I love Lore, it's amazing to get into, and then make backstories for my characters.

[Anonymous98223]

I'd probably be a goat farmer or a dock worker. Let's keep it real.

I'd be whatever I want to be, which is one of the main themes of the entire series.

[Minor Edits]

I'd be a dead body with crappy loot.

[Akeld-Aihk]

I'd probably end up Tarhiel.

[Leilah]

Topic, please.

[Avron the S'wit]

Just an update: I have changed this thread to the Lore subforum's very own general discussion (from the thread title "Want to know what everyone's talking about?"). You can talk about minor questions or ask about resources and external material here, in passing or detail.

[Niid Onikaan]

I have a minor question if you folks will permit ( please bear in mind I'm not trying to start an arguement).

As Oblivion was my first TES game I guess it was pretty well drummed into my head the importance of the Septim bloodline and the Dragonfires. This seemed to be a major factor in why an Empire was needed - both as physical and spirtual protection for the citzens as it were.

Fast forward to 4E 201 and loyalty to an Empire has lost a lot of it's meaning. How much of the reasons behind the lighting of the Dragonfires did the average person know? Was it simply viewed as a ritual by the common man, or did most view it as important?

I guess what I'm working up to asking is is it possible that loyalty to Talos has more long term importance than a simple question of faith?

[Marelo]

One of the main lore writers for Morrowind, who has also contributed important material to Oblivion and Skyrim, seems to be of the opinion that erasing Talos worship is the first step to the unmaking of the world, and that this is the long-term goal of the Thalmor.

It's an out of game source, but one that has some circumstantial evidence in support of its statements (See: Ancano saying that the Eye of Magnus is a possible means to unmake the world). So yeah, I think it's more than possible. Also, in TES, the gods are demonstrably real entities; it's rarely a matter solely of faith. Another way to look at it is that beliefs and stories become real. Same thing in the end.

[Niid Onikaan]

Thank you Marelo, I had a feeling there could be something like repercussions to the Thalmor's banning of Talos worship. Is that why Esbern drops the "ending the world on their terms" line when you first meet him?

The way I see it, Tiber Septim was the first Emperor of a united Tamriel, ascended to godhood and his bloodline was important to protection from Oblivion. Just because that bloodline no longer endures shouldn't diminish the respect he deserves. From a certain point of view, maybe Ulfric and the Storncloaks have the right idea long-term?

[CBR JGWRR]

Oh they have the right idea (mostly) it's just their timing is completely and utterly wrong.

[philfredobob]

Fast forward to 4E 201 and loyalty to an Empire has lost a lot of it's meaning. How much of the reasons behind the lighting of the Dragonfires did the average person know? Was it simply viewed as a ritual by the common man, or did most view it as important?

Baurus tells you at the beginning that people see the Red Dragon Crown as a source of Power, and not the Amulet

so i personally suspect that not many people understand the true importance of the Dragonfires, or the Amulet

[Marelo]

Is that why Esbern drops the "ending the world on their terms" line when you first meet him?

I like to read it that way, yeah. But with TES it's pretty much open to interpretation.

[Anonymous98223]

So I have a quick question concerning Talos. So it has been stated before that it would have been improbable for Tiber Septim to have truly been from Atmora, seeing how no one lived there or traveled there during his time and it was a wasteland. Any of the threads I've read up on recently dismiss it as Imperial and Nordic propaganda or claim that, using his divine powers, he made it a reality when he ascended to godhood. However Talos isn't one person, as most know, hes made up of quite a few souls who then make up one over-soul which is Talos. One of these people was Ysmir Wulfharth, who was from Atmora and lived during the first era. So perhaps the Tiber Septim who conquered Tamriel wasn't from Atmora, and upon death the histories of each of the souls that constitute Talos where meddled together? I' know this has probably been discussed before, but I hadn't seen anyone mention it one the topics I looked up on.

[Niid Onikaan]

Good question and I was wondering the same thing after reading the Arcturian Heresy which states that Talos was a young man from High Rock called Hjalti Early-Beard. I thought Hjalti was definately a Nord considering that in-game quest.

If Talos is an amalgamation of several different beings, then the apotheosis of Tiber Septim resembles the process the Champion of Cyridiil went through when he/she became Sheogorath. Doesn't it have something to do with recreating certain aspects of divinity?

Which leads me to ask what is meant in the book Five Songs of King Wulfharth in this passage:

Wulfharth, hoary Ysmir, went and made peace with the Orcs in spite of his Nordic blood, and they brought many warriors but no wizards at all. Many Nords could not bring themselves to ally with their traditional enemies, even in the face of Red Mountain. They were close to desertion. Then Wulfharth said: “Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?” And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.

If this speech had any relevance in modern Skyrim, would those that "really knew" be Stormcloaks?

[Hissien]

What did Bethesda do to lore in Oblivion? I started with it so I never have noticed anything off but I have heard that they messed up big time.

[Anonymous98223]

They changed the atmosphere to make it more generic, Lord of the Rings style, fantasy. They kinda took two steps back with Oblivion. Morrowind had this awesome alien feel to it, and they felt fans needed something a little more normal I guess. Cyrodiil was supposed to be a jungle.

If Talos is an amalgamation of several different beings, then the apotheosis of Tiber Septim resembles the process the Champion of Cyridiil went through when he/she became Sheogorath. Doesn't it have something to do with recreating certain aspects of divinity?

I wouldn't know. But on the subject of Sheogorath, In Skyrim, I do like how

Spoiler:

Sheogorath mentions the events of the Dark Brotherhood and other Oblivion quests. Seeing how these could of been done, canonically, by different heroes, I like to think that's how things played out. And that all these people (the The Champion of Cyrodiil, the Arch-mage, the listener, etc,) kinda combined into an over-soul of sorts after death, like Talos. There personalities have been mixed, and he can no longer tell who did what, who was the real Champion. So perhaps the public has a similar uncertainty about the Champion that they do with Talos. Was he the Arch-Mage? A member of the Fighters Guild? Then there are darker, more unorthodox rumors of who he really was. A member of the Thieves Guild, an Assassin of the Dark Brotherhood. All the result of being different people.

I'm Not sure if any of that makes sense. I don't do my idea much justice.

[philfredobob]

What did Bethesda do to lore in Oblivion? I started with it so I never have noticed anything off but I have heard that they messed up big time.

this is where i disagree with most people.

Oblivion is the only game that actually had me interested in the lore, the only one that i feel put its own lore to good use, and tried to throw in a twist here or there.

i know, i know, cyrodiil is supposed to be a jungle . but to be honest, i prefer cyrodiil the way it was portrayed in Oblivion. even if that is considered generic
and i know it might have done a lot of things wrong with its lore. but usually the stuff it did wrong interested me more than the stuff the other games did right .

[Dohva.]

Does anyone know why the Bosmer are smaller than the Altmer? My understanding is that the Altmer inhabited Valenwood and adjusted to the environment, thus ending up Bosmer. I find it peculiar that the Bosmer are shorter and darker than the Altmer now. Just curious if any of you elfie lore buffs out there know.

Or perhaps its just the nature of evolution.

[Br3admax]

No. Every race was created magically for their environments. The Bosmer were made by Y-named guy. I forget. Anyway it is hard to live in trees and still be tall.

[Hissien]

Yiffre i think is his name

[GodsBePraised]

So I have a quick question concerning Talos. So it has been stated before that it would have been improbable for Tiber Septim to have truly been from Atmora, seeing how no one lived there or traveled there during his time and it was a wasteland. Any of the threads I've read up on recently dismiss it as Imperial and Nordic propaganda or claim that, using his divine powers, he made it a reality when he ascended to godhood. However Talos isn't one person, as most know, hes made up of quite a few souls who then make up one over-soul which is Talos. One of these people was Ysmir Wulfharth, who was from Atmora and lived during the first era. So perhaps the Tiber Septim who conquered Tamriel wasn't from Atmora, and upon death the histories of each of the souls that constitute Talos where meddled together? I' know this has probably been discussed before, but I hadn't seen anyone mention it one the topics I looked up on.

Tiber Septim was born in High Rock with a Nordic name. Wulfharth was born in Atmora. Septim said he was born in Atmora for propaganda to gain the Nord's help.. but this also could have been 1. due to Wulfharth and Early-Beard's dichotomy or 2. Tiber Septim CHIM'd his birth place so that both stories happened.

[GodsBePraised]

Good question and I was wondering the same thing after reading the Arcturian Heresy which states that Talos was a young man from High Rock called Hjalti Early-Beard. I thought Hjalti was definately a Nord considering that in-game quest.

If Talos is an amalgamation of several different beings, then the apotheosis of Tiber Septim resembles the process the Champion of Cyridiil went through when he/she became Sheogorath. Doesn't it have something to do with recreating certain aspects of divinity?

Which leads me to ask what is meant in the book Five Songs of King Wulfharth in this passage:

Wulfharth, hoary Ysmir, went and made peace with the Orcs in spite of his Nordic blood, and they brought many warriors but no wizards at all. Many Nords could not bring themselves to ally with their traditional enemies, even in the face of Red Mountain. They were close to desertion. Then Wulfharth said: “Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?” And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.

If this speech had any relevance in modern Skyrim, would those that "really knew" be Stormcloaks?

Kind of. The Champion followed the walking way of mantling, where Sheogorath became him and he became Sheogorath and always was. Talos ascended because of the enantiomorph between Septim, Wulf and Arctus and some say through this he mantled Lorkhan. What has to be recognized then, though, is that Shor no longer exists but exists as Talos who exists as Shor. We know Talos took the missing god's place.. but if he mantled him, that means that they are one and the same.

Not sure what you mean with the whole Stormcloak thing though.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I have a minor question if you folks will permit ( please bear in mind I'm not trying to start an arguement).

I don't argue. I inform.

As Oblivion was my first TES game I guess it was pretty well drummed into my head the importance of the Septim bloodline and the Dragonfires. This seemed to be a major factor in why an Empire was needed - both as physical and spirtual protection for the citzens as it were.

Fast forward to 4E 201 and loyalty to an Empire has lost a lot of it's meaning. How much of the reasons behind the lighting of the Dragonfires did the average person know? Was it simply viewed as a ritual by the common man, or did most view it as important?

I guess what I'm working up to asking is is it possible that loyalty to Talos has more long term importance than a simple question of faith?

You appear to have Talos worship confused with the Dragonfires. They're connected, but not in the way you apparently think they are. Let's turn back the pages of history to the First Era.

The Amulet of Kings goes back many hundreds of years before Talos unified Tamriel. It was originally a powerful soul gem of Ayleid make, and it was re-gifted to Alessia on her death bed by Akatosh and Lorkhan. It was said at the time that as long as a legitimate heir of Dragon Blood occupied the Ruby Throne of Cyrodiil while wearing the Amulet, the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion would remain strong and the crafty descendents of the Ayleids (like Mankar Camoran) couldn't summon armies of Daedra to threaten the Empire of men.

It's actually been lost before, twice. Alessia's empire continued for quite some time after her death, but by about the halfway point of the First Era it was lost. Keep in mind the Empire never really encompassed more than Cyrodiil at that time. Sources like the Remanada mention how corruption and strife grew in the land. Eventually the Amulet was lost and remained so for centuries, and the Empire fell into darkness. Eventually a Dragonborn named Reman Cyrodiil emerged wearing it. There are varying theories about his origin and relationship to the Alessian Dynasty, but he lit the Dragonfires again and established the Second Empire.

It too eventually fell. Reman III was assassinated and the Akaviri Potentates ruled for some time. They were assassinated, too, and the Tharns ruled as regents for a while. There were a lot of civil wars and casualties for a few hundred more years, then Talos Stormcrown appeared. He was Dragonborn like Alessia and Reman, and recovered the Amulet of Kings from Sancre Tor. He was the first Emperor to actually unify not only Cyrodiil but all of Tamriel. That's one reason he was made into a god after his death. The Septim Dynasty continued for several hundred years, and then the Oblivion Crisis happened. The events of that are well known.

After that, the Dragonfires were no longer needed. Akatosh made a new covenant with Mankind. After Martin shattered the Amulet and merged his blood with the Oversoul, Akatosh physically appeared due to this sacrifice and created a newer, stronger barrier. The Amulet and Dragonfires were no longer needed. It was no longer important for a Dragonborn to occupy the throne. Therefore, when Titus Mede reunified the Empire early in the Fourth Era, it wasn't really a problem that he was a mere mortal. It wasn't like before, when the Alessians and Remans failed. The barrier was strong.

The Thalmor apparently believe that by banning worship of Talos, they can help break humanity's spirit and power, and either return Mundus to Elven rule or perhaps even cause it to dissolve and ascent spiritually back into the state it existed in before the gods convened and made it. If you read the Monomyth and other Aldmeri spiritual beliefs, you know they consider Mundus a prison and Lorkhan a vile trickster. They associate Talos with Lorkhan because he serves the same function as a god of mankind. His presence in Aetherius actually strengthens the anchors of Mundus and keeps it strong. If the Aldmeri Dominion want to live in their Paradise, he must be erased. That's why he's important.

Does anyone know why the Bosmer are smaller than the Altmer? My understanding is that the Altmer inhabited Valenwood and adjusted to the environment, thus ending up Bosmer. I find it peculiar that the Bosmer are shorter and darker than the Altmer now. Just curious if any of you elfie lore buffs out there know.

Or perhaps its just the nature of evolution.

According to Altmer religion:
"Auriel pleaded with Anu to take them back, but he had already filled their places with something else. But his soul was gentler and granted Auriel his Bow and Shield, so that he might save the Aldmer from the hordes of Men. Some had already fallen, like the Chimer, who listened to tainted et'Ada, and others, like the Bosmer, had soiled Time's line by taking Mannish wives."[/i]