Lore General Discussion!

[Pilaf The Defiler]

To be honest, I wouldn't put much weight in Daggerfall relationship data. It's interesting to look at, but a little nonsensical from a lore standpoint.

The Breton motto

[Leckan]

There are people in lore replacing their hearts with Briarhearts and Heartstones, but has anyone replaced their heart with a Dremora's or maybe a Taproot?

[MetaCthulhu]

Possibly, Neloth does talk about how his autopsies of Spriggans led him to think about replacing peoples hearts, so it isn't crazy to think a taproot could be used. However, it is worth mentioning that even extremely powerful mages have trouble replacing hearts.

[Leckan]

Possibly, Neloth does talk about how his autopsies of Spriggans led him to think about replacing peoples hearts, so it isn't crazy to think a taproot could be used. However, it is worth mentioning that even extremely powerful mages have trouble replacing hearts.

I forgot about that. Taproots are at least an equilant to the heart of an animal, while things like briarhearts are... flowers? I am not sure how they can substitute the function of a heart. Although, aren't Forsworn Briar-Hearts considered a type of undead? I underatand too that Heartstones are imbued with some divine energy. Still though, a taproot is at least heart-like.

[MetaCthulhu]

BriarHearts might just be used because they're generally the right size and shape, maybe what matters isn't really what is used but instead what it's enchanted with. For instance, a heartstone is inherently more magical, so it would make a stronger enchantment (<-- crazy theory). The problem with a taproot is that it might be to big to fit comfortably in a chest cavity.

[legoless]

In Wrothgar, it's revealed that briarhearts are grown on carefully cultivated trees infused with dark nature magic and the lifeblood of dozens of human sacrifices. That's a lot of magic being poured into a single fruit. Heartstones are filled with the power of Creation, so no surprises that they can be used to give life.

Taproots and Daedra Hearts, on the other hand, are just alchemy ingredients. We've seen taproots being used to restore virility to plantlife, but I doubt they're a valid substitute in necromancy. Daedra Hearts aren't even mortal; they're made from chaotic creatia, and seem to be tied to the vestige of the Daedra who owned it. Probably useful when creating an atronach, but I can't imagine them being animated by a mortal spirit.

[MetaCthulhu]

In Wrothgar, it's revealed that briarhearts are grown on carefully cultivated trees infused with dark nature magic and the lifeblood of dozens of human sacrifices. That's a lot of magic being poured into a single fruit. Heartstones are filled with the power of Creation, so no surprises that they can be used to give life.

Didn't know that, that's cool! Mages get a bad rap and they aren't even allowed to sell black soul gems; apothecaries have a squeaky clean record and can sell briarhearts? Double standard.

[Leckan]

In Wrothgar, it's revealed that briarhearts are grown on carefully cultivated trees infused with dark nature magic and the lifeblood of dozens of human sacrifices. That's a lot of magic being poured into a single fruit. Heartstones are filled with the power of Creation, so no surprises that they can be used to give life.

Taproots and Daedra Hearts, on the other hand, are just alchemy ingredients. We've seen taproots being used to restore virility to plantlife, but I doubt they're a valid substitute in necromancy. Daedra Hearts aren't even mortal; they're made from chaotic creatia, and seem to be tied to the vestige of the Daedra who owned it. Probably useful when creating an atronach, but I can't imagine them being animated by a mortal spirit.

That is fascinating.

Daedra hearts look like human hearts, I see no reason why they couldn't be transplanted. Taproots are admittingly more questionable, but... magic, y'know?

[legoless]

Daedra hearts look like human hearts, I see no reason why they couldn't be transplanted. Taproots are admittingly more questionable, but... magic, y'know?

Things don't really work out when you try to put a mortal soul in a Daedric body. It might have the same form, but it's like antimatter or something - doesn't mix with the stuff of Tamriel, and it's usually a shoddy imitation anyway.

[Leckan]

Daedra hearts look like human hearts, I see no reason why they couldn't be transplanted. Taproots are admittingly more questionable, but... magic, y'know?

Things don't really work out when you try to put a mortal soul in a Daedric body. It might have the same form, but it's like antimatter or something - doesn't mix with the stuff of Tamriel, and it's usually a shoddy imitation anyway.

That is a link to a feral soul shriven, which to my knowledge is a soulless human body that has been driven to madness from being tormented in Molag Bal's realm for a long time. It's not a human soul in a dremora's body, nor a dramora's soul in a human's body; nor are there any swapping of body parts.

And aren't mortals technically just the descendants of the lesser et'ada that were trapped in the physical realm after Nirn's creation?

[legoless]

That is a link to a feral soul shriven, which to my knowledge is a soulless human body that has been driven to madness from being tormented in Molag Bal's realm for a long time. It's not a human soul in a dremora's body, nor a dramora's soul in a human's body; nor are there any swapping of body parts.

Actually, "human soul in a dremora's body" is a pretty apt description of what a soul shriven is. There's nothing mortal about them. Read this article.

And aren't mortals technically just the descendants of the lesser et'ada that were trapped in the physical realm after Nirn's creation?

I guess, but that doesn't make them Daedra, nor does it mean they're made of chaotic creatia.

[Leckan]

That is a link to a feral soul shriven, which to my knowledge is a soulless human body that has been driven to madness from being tormented in Molag Bal's realm for a long time. It's not a human soul in a dremora's body, nor a dramora's soul in a human's body; nor are there any swapping of body parts.

Actually, "human soul in a dremora's body" is a pretty apt description of what a soul shriven is. There's nothing mortal about them. Read this article.

And aren't mortals technically just the descendants of the lesser et'ada that were trapped in the physical realm after Nirn's creation?

I guess, but that doesn't make them Daedra, nor does it mean they're made of chaotic creatia.

That's interesting, I read about soul shrivens before but I forgot about the creatia. It's all a tad confusing to me, because it leads to some questions for me. But, that's for another time. Anyway, the vestige's body may be akin to a dremora, but their soul is not in the body, and they are perfectly fine at first but all the torture over the centuries makes them into savages.

[BetaB17]

No, its more a matter of chaotic creatia vs the stasis of aether. Doesnt matter if you supplement a whole body or a collection of flesh, or supplement the very essense of their being.. they just dont mingle well. Maybe for a time the two could coexist within the same host, but eventually all hell breaks loose.

Look at the Flesh atronach, where strong bindings and enchantments must be in place, less the Daedra breaks free from its unnatural torment. Even with those bindings, it will constantly struggle to break free, and likely so I cant blame em. Daedra are eternal, woven from Chaos n formed of self.. flesh is not eternal, flesh can be mortal, a fine subject for Necromancy or change but never so as pure or eternal..

A mortal vestige is no more different than that. You are torn asunder and mended by chaos, an abomination to self, and any benfits of perceived 'daedric immortality' is vastly doomed by the eventual lose n corruption of self. It is not merely a matter of eons of torture that triggers this state by the hands of Moag Bal, but the torment within your very being. Maybe that is the true cruelty of Molag, and one that is oh so fitting. And yes, maybe you may be able to push beyond this if your very essence or soul was rich with energy from Aetherius(i.e the Soulless One), but the odds of that can be led to pure speculation >_>

Think of the two like Acid & Alkaline(Base) in Ph values. Yes, you could mix the two and heck one may be larger in value than the other, but the end result is almost always chaotic from even the molecular level to the visible extremes. As in the case of stasis or chaos, the two are ever in conflict, ais the case of polar oopposites

[Leckan]

No, its more a matter of chaotic creatia vs the stasis of aether. Doesnt matter if you supplement a whole body or a collection of flesh, or supplement the very essense of their being.. they just dont mingle well. Maybe for a time the two could coexist within the same host, but eventually all hell breaks loose.

Look at the Flesh atronach, where strong bindings and enchantments must be in place, less the Daedra breaks free from its unnatural torment. Even with those bindings, it will constantly struggle to break free, and likely so I cant blame em. Daedra are eternal, woven from Chaos n formed of self.. flesh is not eternal, flesh can be mortal, a fine subject for Necromancy or change but never so as pure or eternal..

A mortal vestige is no more different than that. You are torn asunder and mended by chaos, an abomination to self, and any benfits of perceived 'daedric immortality' is vastly doomed by the eventual lose n corruption of self. It is not merely a matter of eons of torture that triggers this state by the hands of Moag Bal, but the torment within your very being. Maybe that is the true cruelty of Molag, and one that is oh so fitting. And yes, maybe you may be able to push beyond this if your very essence or soul was rich with energy from Aetherius(i.e the Soulless One), but the odds of that can be led to pure speculation >_>

Think of the two like Acid & Alkaline(Base) in Ph values. Yes, you could mix the two and heck one may be larger in value than the other, but the end result is almost always chaotic from even the molecular level to the visible extremes. As in the case of stasis or chaos, the two are ever in conflict, ais the case of polar oopposites

Is any of this stated in-game? From the reading material provided, the rapid decay is regarded as a byproduct of having no soul (aetherial energy/focal point) to hold the construct together. The Soulless One was special because it's regarded that Mundus enriched him/her with aetherial energy to make the creatia body perfect.

[legoless]

I'm pretty sure it's stated that the Daedric bodies are imperfectly made and decay over time. However, we see other cases where vestiges seem to be made perfectly: Haskill, Boziikkodstrun, Umaril (probably). Those are all vastly powerful beings, however. Your everyday mortal jammed into a Daedric body doesn't have much of a chance, from the looks of it.

Alternatively, maybe beings like Haskill simply ditch the old body and reform at will. After all, Feral Shriven aren't mad because of their decrepit bodies - those get replaced regularly. They've been driven insane by the process of Daedric respawning as much as from the torture and slave labour.

[Leckan]

I'm pretty sure it's stated that the Daedric bodies are imperfectly made and decay over time. However, we see other cases where vestiges seem to be made perfectly: Haskill, Boziikkodstrun, Umaril (probably). Those are all vastly powerful beings, however. Your everyday mortal jammed into a Daedric body doesn't have much of a chance, from the looks of it.

Alternatively, maybe beings like Haskill simply ditch the old body and reform at will. After all, Feral Shriven aren't mad because of their decrepit bodies - those get replaced regularly. They've been driven insane by the process of Daedric respawning as much as from the torture and slave labour.

True enough. Though, what of Cadwell? He was one of the oldest of the soul shriven but was already touched with insanity before going to Coldharbour, and he seems fine.

[legoless]

Cadwell is something Other. He's fused with the reality of Coldharbour and can teleport at will within the realm. He also seems to have innate knowledge of its layout and functioning. I like to think he's a chunk of Molag Bal which has been commandeered by Meridia, but we don't get much explanation in-game. "Insane John Cleese with godlike powers" makes for some good comic relief though, so I can't complain too much.

[Leckan]

Cadwell is something Other. He's fused with the reality of Coldharbour and can teleport at will within the realm. He also seems to have innate knowledge of its layout and functioning. I like to think he's a chunk of Molag Bal which has been commandeered by Meridia, but we don't get much explanation in-game. "Insane John Cleese with godlike powers" makes for some good comic relief though, so I can't complain too much.

That could also be the end result of spending untold centuries, or even millenia, in Coldharbour without becoming feral. If you were to play a game for many years, you'd probably know every trick and cheat.

[legoless]

Seems like that's what they were getting at. Still, I'm betting we haven't seen the last of Cadwell.

Spoiler:

Considering his new mistress Meridia wants you on her team in the upcoming War of the Princes, we might get to see what he's still capable after having reclaimed his soul from Bal. After all, Cadwell's Silver and Gold involved him literally training you for a higher purpose (and one which felt suspiciously close to CHIM, in my opinion - "see your prophecy from another perspective!").

[MidbossVyers]

Not directly related to ES lore, but it is a part of it. Both the words, "soul" and "vestige", have plural forms, "souls" and "vestiges". However, according to Dictionary.com, "animus" does not have a plural form. However, if one were to want to talk about the plural form of the umbrella term for "souls" and "vestiges", how would one express it?

[legoless]

Animuses is perfectly valid.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Animi

[Dark Spark]

I think 'anima' rolls off the tongue more readily.

[BetaB17]

Animi

Idk, this seems the most likely considering English's grammar

[legoless]

Using native English grammar, animuses is the only correct form. The Latin plural of animi would be acceptable and admittedly does sound a bit nicer. Anima is incorrect, since that's the singular feminine form of animus.

However, having a quick look online reveals that there is no plural of animus; it's a mass noun.