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And Talos isn't one of the daedra.

"Tiber Septim" is not a real person, in that there was never a mama and papa Septim who gave birth to little Tiber. It's the Imperial nickname attributed to the legendary founder of the Septim Dynasty. Since so much of the events leading up to this are propaganda and Imperial legend, it's impossible to say what the identity of this person or persons are.

Someone in the thread erroneously stated Septim "founded the Imperials", but that ignores or is ignorant of a lot of lore. The Imperials were a very old race when they put Tiber on the throne. He wasn't a Founder. He was the Reclaimer, ushering in a return to the glory days of the Reman Dynasty. He was also said to be Dragonborn and an avatar of Shezarr.

If all that's true, this was more than a man, and should be viewed similarly to demigods like Morihaus or Pelinal rather than trying to assign a race to him.

That's very possible, actually, this being the conglomerate of the actions of many different persons, just like Perseus in Greek myths.

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:"Tiber Septim" is not a real person, in that there was never a mama and papa Septim who gave birth to little Tiber. It's the Imperial nickname attributed to the legendary founder of the Septim Dynasty. Since so much of the events leading up to this are propaganda and Imperial legend, it's impossible to say what the identity of this person or persons are.

Someone in the thread erroneously stated Septim "founded the Imperials", but that ignores or is ignorant of a lot of lore. The Imperials were a very old race when they put Tiber on the throne. He wasn't a Founder. He was the Reclaimer, ushering in a return to the glory days of the Reman Dynasty. He was also said to be Dragonborn and an avatar of Shezarr.

If all that's true, this was more than a man, and should be viewed similarly to demigods like Morihaus or Pelinal rather than trying to assign a race to him.

Marisa Kirisame wrote:That's very possible, actually, this being the conglomerate of the actions of many different persons, just like Perseus in Greek myths.

Let me play devil's advocate here: If Tiber Septim is multiple people, which one of them started the Septim Dynasty? Is it the same one whose blood is on "the armor of Tiber Septim"? If it is, why would we consider him multiple people? Wouldn't just be one person who has other peoples' achievements tacked on (a la Thomas Edison)? If it is two separate people (one whose blood was on the armor, and another one who founded the dynasty), does armor-Septim's children have "the dragons-blood? If so, why does founder-Septim's children have it? He wasn't the one blessed in Sancre Tor. Would this mean there are multiple Septim bloodlines? And that just leads to a motley of issues.

(Now of course all this can be handwaved with the Top Gear answer, "We, as a group, passed. As a group, combined, we passed everything.")

More like the exact circumstances were lost on time and politics. Much likely, there was a person to found the bloodline, but the deeds of some of his successors were associated with him, 'Tiber Septim', by the common folklore (not like Edison who claimed it himself). The real Tiber, bloodline founder who could even inherit that name from his successors, was long since dead by the time these deeds were done.

Look up ancient Greek heroes for examples.

Due to the metaphysics of how the Dragon blood might possibly be directly bestowed by Akatosh to a person at coronation, as discussed here, the identity of the founder isn't as relevant as one might assume at first glance. In fact, as the Septim bloodline was completely severed at least twice (admitted by the author of Brief History of the Empire) and likely even more than that, so it's probably best not to look at things like the person on the throne being the "real" Tiber Septim. He's a symbol and a rallying point. He's a fixed point for Imperial cultural identity, like Reman or Alessia to Imperials of the past. The actual details of any persons who performed the deeds the culture hero is attributed with, quite frankly, matter less than the Stormcloaks vs. Imperials debate people in this fandom obsess over. The myth matters, the man/men/women/whatever were simply there to enact it.

Aedra are mortals, not 'gods'.

^That is both misleading and wrong. The Aedra, those that helped shaped Nirn and partook in its creation are very 'gods' by many reasons. Much like the Daedra, not only are they prayed to and often deities to various cultures, they are also very much real and very much powerful in each their own ways <_<

Lastly to call Aedra mortals is like calling a mudcrab a daedric prince. Unlike the Et'ada that did not partake in creation, they are indeed able to be killed.. though the means to do is not clear. But by no means are they as 'mortal' as the many denizens that depend upon Nirn, they are beyound our comprehension >_> This of course changes when on the topic of mortal gods or those whom ascended, i.e like Tiber Septim

In regards to his more mortal identity and its controversy.. there's not much for me to say that somebody already hasnt

Aren't all Nine Divines ascended except Kynareth?

Marisa Kirisame wrote:Aren't all Nine Divines ascended except Kynareth?

No, only Talos and potentially Arkay.

Why Arkay?

Because Mr. R.K. has a lore book with a legend of his ascension.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ark%27ay,_ ... _and_Death
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Arkay_the_Enemy

Mara's character sounds spookily cruel and pitiless in the first one: "I cannot give you 'a little more time'. I can only condemn you to Eternal labor in the field you have chosen. How say you to that?"

I guess some forum has it like that: "I cannot 'let you edit that thread'. I can only condemn you to Eternal labor as a moderator. How say you to that?"

It was mentioned by a guard in Skyrim that Tiber Septim was originally "Talos of Atmora", so he was probably Atmoran/Proto-Nord since one cannot change their race.

^But that is but one of many origin legends. He could of been many things, or none of them, but from my experience the Nords arent the best sources for separating truth from fiction

Hrongar said: "Didn't you hear the thundering sound as you returned to Whiterun? That was the voice of the Greybeards, summoning you to High Hrothgar! This hasn't happened in ... centuries, at least. Not since Tiber Septim himself was summoned when he was still Talos of Atmora!"

Maybe he was called that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean he realy came from here. As far as we know, the last people to come from there were the five hundred companions during the late merethic era.

Actually, Talos of Atmora could have been a different man whose qualities and deeds were attributed to Tiber Septim.

Also, "cannot change race", meh.

Speaking of Talos, Which name do you prefer? Talso, Tiber Septim, Dragonborn, Ysmir, Dovahsebrom or Hjalti?

When speaking about the person wo founded the third empire, tiber septim; when speaking about the ninth diety of the imperial pantheon, talos. Hjalti only if the source mentiones that name (we still don't know for 100% if they're the same). Dragonborn and Ysmir are titles for more than one person.

Debatable.

It's... kind of not? These are lore facets that have been confirmed several times over.

SarthesArai wrote:Dragonborn and Ysmir are titles for more than one person.

ProphetDragon wrote:Debatable.

What I assume (I obviously don't know for sure) SarthesArai means is that Ysmir and Dragonborn are more of titles (like Count or Duke) or nicknames ( like Reggie or "boss") than names. For example, there are three different people with the "name" of Ysmir, and many, many people with the moniker Dragonborn including, but not limited to: The PC in Skyrim, Tiber Septim, Miraak, St. Alessia, Uriel Septim, Reman Cyrodiil, "Marty" (sue me), and maybe the Nerevarine (yeah, I went there )

MetaCthulhu wrote:

SarthesArai wrote:Dragonborn and Ysmir are titles for more than one person.

ProphetDragon wrote:Debatable.

What I assume (I obviously don't know for sure) SarthesArai means is that Ysmir and Dragonborn are more of titles (like Count or Duke) or nicknames ( like Reggie or "boss") than names. For example, there are three different people with the "name" of Ysmir, and many, many people with the moniker Dragonborn including, but not limited to: The PC in Skyrim, Tiber Septim, Miraak, St. Alessia, Uriel Septim, Reman Cyrodiil, "Marty" (sue me), and maybe the Nerevarine (yeah, I went there )

Just as I said. Yes.

Saying there could be an argument isn't a very good argument itself.

Dark Spark wrote:Saying there could be an argument isn't a very good argument itself.

Cause and Effect, my old friend. Cause and Effect.

My friend comments on this discussion of ours that the truth is out there.

T9 sux.