Was "Versidue-Shaie" a human?

[Br3admax]

Way too much hoop jumping. Anyway, I already said there could be "snake-men" but the ones that came to Tamriel were humans and native to Akavir. Sources also state they were just human, you know. Besides the ones I brought up.

On the other continents, the Wandering Ehlnofey became the Men: the Nords of Atmora, the Redguards of Yokuda, and the Tsaesci of Akavir.

No mention of Snake in sight.

And we only have evidence, and I mean actual evidence of Men. So while there may be Snake-People, we've only seen humans and they are not from Tamriel, but Akavir proper. They themselves have also never brought up literal snakes. Also, no one has ever called a human from Black Marsh an Argonian and I doubt any Akaviri would either. They'd call them Tamrielic if anything. And I believe the human population you speak of died out.

[Jeancey]

I guess my point was that the most recent (as in recently released games) says snake-men. Anuad is quite old, and even the evidence from Oblivion is nearly 10 years old at this point, whereas 3 books in ESO specifically mention snake-men, and even scaly feet.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Yeah, but ESO also presents us with this illustration, and humanoid Akaviri armor sets. There is new lore indicating Akaviri people were human, and that they weren't. Honestly, the lore on Akavir is contradictory on purpose. It's like the lore on Tiber Septim. There's never going to be one official version of that story, because the mystery of it is too good.

[Jeancey]

I actually 100% disagree with your assessment of that image. That image is NOT of an Akaviri person, nor it is it an image of Akaviri armor. It is a picture of Fighters Guild blacksmith created armor "appropriated and improved" from written descriptions of Akaviri armor from an Imperial source. They used written descriptions to create armor that they then made changes to, including making it so that a Nord could wear it. It actually proves my point. The Akaviri armor we see in game ISN'T armor made by the Akaviri, but armor influenced by the Akaviri style. There is zero evidence that this is what they looked like. It simply isn't a picture of an Akaviri soldier in any way.

[Imbalance]

Consider along with the fact that we've never seen a Tsaesci Snake-man in-game the additional fact that we've never seen a skeleton with a tail, much less an Argonian or Khajiit skull. Functional form doesn't not necessarily match lore descriptions often due to technical or time restraints during development. When you glitch through a gap in the seams of the terrain, do you consider it canon?

[Br3admax]

The difference being we've seen actually Tsaesci, with skin, in too instances now, and Alduin's Wall. To ignore the fact that they are Men is kind of ignorant. It's not functional form, it's in game facts. If they wanted the Tsaesci to look like snakes, and they easily could have especially in concept art, they could have. But they didn't.

[Imbalance]

But they didn't make beast skeletons, either. Therefore, it is a game fact that Khajiit and Argonians either don't have bones or have decidedly human skeletons, using that logic.

[Br3admax]

Not at all. That analogy makes no sense because we never actually see the skeleton of a beast race, outside of ES:O, and even then that's not in concept art. And all Khajiit don't look the same, so that analogy wouldn't work there either. Quite a bit of them just look like Bosmer.

[Trelares]

This discussion will probably lead nowhere, because we don't have proof of either statement. It's like many things in TES lore rather obscure and game sources tend to go left and right at the same time.

One thing you could point out though is:
Argonians and Khajiit consist of various subraces(Breeds/Tribes) that are documented by lore, but how many of them have you ever seen in a game?

[Jeancey]

I'm just curious, where did we see a Tsaesci, alive, with skin, in the games?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I don't understand how it being a sketch of a sketch makes it any less a depiction of an Akaviri warrior than if it were the original sketch. That sort of doesn't contradict my point at all. It sounds like you just really want them to be snake men. I think it'd be cool, too, but as I said there's no more evidence for that than for them being Men. I'm not saying they were Men, just that they weren't confirmed to be NOT Men. Big difference. If the Imperial scholar sketched pictures of armored Akaviri warriors and the Fighters Guild stuff was based on it, that implies a physical similarity right off the bat, even if it's only as physically similar to humans as Khajiit and Argonians are. I'm not sold on the whole "snake lower body" thing, even assuming they're beast people, as one of the books from ESO specifically mentions their feet. This was by Abnur Tharn, who actually served under the Potentate.

[Jeancey]

It wasn't a sketch of a sketch. They designed armor for themselves based on the written descriptions of Akaviri armor. In no way are they saying the image is Akaviri, only Akaviri inspired. It is supposed to be an Imperial, or another of the Tamriel races inside the armor, not an Akaviri soldier. That was my point. If took a picture of a jelly-fish, and designed a suit of armor that was inspired by that and wore it, that wouldn't make jelly-fish any more human. Inspiration needs no physical similarity.

My main point was that many in this thread were saying that they WEREN'T snake-men at all. I'm saying that there is plenty of evidence that they were snake-men. I'm not discounting the possibility that there were also humans called Tsaesci who interacted with Tamriel races as well. I'm saying there might be both. And I stated very clearly that I think they are snakes in the same way that Argonians are lizards. They look like snakes, but walk upright on two legs. I'm not disputing that.

[MidbossVyers]

They could look like the Orochi army in Warriors Orochi. Humanoid, but with many snake-like features.

[AngryNord]

In "2920: The last year of the first era" he is described as 'slithering along' and of having scaly skin.

[all_freed]

maybe they are like vampire lords but far more powerful and can shift between two forms whenever and not weakened by sunlight: a more humanoid form and a more snake form

i think i remember in the books it said that tsaeci ate the akaviri humans, maybe this made them into that where the humanoid essence linger in their bodies for wver. so it could be that they are all of them

[Leckan]

In "2920: The last year of the first era" he is described as 'slithering along' and of having scaly skin.

The writer could had been using metaphors as Versidue-Shaie was depicted as a bad guy, a "treacherous snake."

Didn't the Tsaesci from Reman's days interbreed with the Imperials? Skeletons of Akaviri warriors also had humanoid skeletons. It would be cool if they were snake-people, I just think that physical evidence says something different than the stories.

[Zero_The_Dark]

I'd take that physical evidence with a grain of salt. Khajiit and Argonian skeletons are human as well and they very clearly different from normal humans. I'd easily chalk that one up to not wanting to design a whole new model just for the akaviri skeletons.

[AngryNord]

Skeletons of Akaviri warriors also had humanoid skeletons

Which could also be explained with lazy TES:IV developers...

[Leckan]

I'd take that physical evidence with a grain of salt. Khajiit and Argonian skeletons are human as well and they very clearly different from normal humans. I'd easily chalk that one up to not wanting to design a whole new model just for the akaviri skeletons.

I didn't know that their skeletons have been depicted. However, while what you say can be as true as it is false, how are the crossbred children explained?

[Zero_The_Dark]

I believe in the pale pass quest in Oblivion there is a skeleton or two. I think you also interact with the ghost of an Akaviri messanger. I haven't played oblivion in way too long though so I can't quite remember.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Didn't the Tsaesci from Reman's days interbreed with the Imperials? Skeletons of Akaviri warriors also had humanoid skeletons. It would be cool if they were snake-people, I just think that physical evidence says something different than the stories.

They supposedly did. Of course, so did Morihaus and his heirs. This has been recently confirmed to be more than just fanon, by the Loremaster's Archive. Keep in mind that regardless of the form they take, the Tsaesci are magical creatures from a distant land. The regular rules of procreation can be waived when magic is involved. If we're to believe tales like Report: Disaster at Ionith the Tsaesci can employ advanced sorcery and perhaps even control the weather. The ability to produce fertile offspring with Humans or Elves might not be beyond the capabilities of such a race, even if they do have serpent blood.