Talos - The man not the God

[SmallFries]

Actually, the only thing the Skyrim evidence supports is that there was a man named Hjalti who slept in Old Hroldan once and was in Tiber Septim's army. While I'm sure the devs meant for us to put two and two together, it still doesn't mean there wasn't also a Talos Stormcrown.

Hjalti Early-Bird perhaps.

Ie, Talos himself.

That's exactly what I was getting at. Bethesda obviously intended the fans who read The Arcturian Heresy to make that connection.

BUT

Talos is supposed to be Atmoran.

Hjalti is a Breton, or a Nord or Cyrodill who lived in Alcaire. If he actually existed, which the Skyrim quest suggests he did. It could be another Hjalti.

Either of these men could have later become Tiber Septim. Or both. Or neither.

There are many gaps and unanswered questions there.

Don't take either version of Tiber's past at face value. Both promote a specific agenda. It's entirely possible he was neither Talos nor Hjalti but some third party. Maybe Wulfharth himself, or Arctus, or even Emperor Zero survived his assassination and changed his appearance to resemble Talos.

That's speculation on my part but it has roughly the same amount of proof as Hjalti being Septim, which is hearsay. Nothing concrete. That entire Hroldan quest could have been purposely misleading. Suppose the two men simply shared a room? Perhaps they had a homosexual affair. Stranger things happen all the time in this lore.

I think the fact that the Ghost thinks you are Hjalti says alot about who Hjalti is. Since you of course are not Hjalti Early-Bird, and I'm sure many have slept in that bed before since they where running a business on it, yet the ghost now appears. It could be a coincidence. But I really doubt that. To me this confirms that the PC shares a common soul with Hjalti and therefore Talos.

As for the Atmora version. It seems unlikely since there hadn't really been any more migrations from Atmore since the first era and then all of a sudden Talos arrives in the 2nd era. This to me seems like a re-made version for political reasons. whether it was done through a dragon break once Talos became a god or simply re-written in the books I have no idea.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Or it might just mean that since you're also a Shezarrine and Dragonborn as Hjalti was, your soul feels similar to his. Remember ghosts probably see differently from us. They probably kind of see souls, and if you are part of Lorkhan's oversoul you'd look similar to others of that lineage.

[GoatLiver]

So I have been looking into a lot of TES lore recently and I think I now have a better understanding of quite a few things. Some of the stuff I found on other sites reminded me a little of what was being talked about here and a lot of it was able to link to in-game books as reference even if the text was still up for interpretation. However I still have a few new questions. Might be that I have misinterpreted something or confused myself with the lore.

I believe I have a much better understanding of CHIM now and I think what Br3admax said regarding both stories being true has considerable merit. There is enough evidence present in game to support Talos achieving CHIM which makes it reasonable.

Both stories are true. He was born in High Rock, gained CHIM, and then made it so he was born in Atmora. That's how they are both true.

The new question I now have is about what people have been saying about Talos as a God being comprised of multiple people in an "oversoul". I don't really understand the concept of an oversoul or where the evidence to suggest such a thing comes from?

Because Talos could use the Numidium with the underking's soul in it because of their shared soul.

The quote from Hissien comes off (in my opinion, and not trying to be rude) as speculation and I can't see any real basis for it. I originally thought if that where the only reason for people assuming this then the theory was thin to say the least. If there is any other reason or evidence for this I would love to see it.

The Underking, the other Underking(Wulfharth) and Talos all became one god. It happened during the Warp in the West, when Talos used CHIM to make it so he was always a god from death. It is very complicated and I am too tired right now to explain it all.

Br3admax was saying something similar and that it was sourced to the Warp in the West, however I have not played the game from which those events are derived and hence am not knowledgeable on the subject. Again any info that is confirming this would be great.

So as I understand it the very concept of CHIM revolves around individuality, and for Talos to achieve this as I believe he did, he would not need the others or rather the other souls would disprove him. I wouldn't think he could achieve CHIM with them as "The Tower is the shape of the only name of God, I". I just cant see the Underking being part of Talos as most lore I found regarding him claims that during the Warp in the West "it is believed that the Underking reclaimed his lost heart from the Mantella, giving him the death he had sought for so long." Am I completely off base with this or do I have something?

[Br3admax]

They share a soul. They were one, made into four, including the Blades agent. I hate to say this, but think of it like The Legend of Zelda: The Four Swords. Aren't all of those Links still the same soul? Not exactly the same person, but the same soul. All are Link. All are Lorkhan.

[GoatLiver]

I haven't played the Four Swords game so that doesn't mean anything to me. Its all well and good to say they have a shared soul but what are you basing this off is the question I am asking? Why do you think these people formed Talos and why do you think they are Lorkhan? All the evidence and theories I have found would make CHIM an impossibility if all of these people where combining.

[Br3admax]

All of those people did not have CHIM, only Tiber Septim gained it. A Shezarrine is almost always anybody who continues Mundus and wields a considerable amount of influence over the Elder Scrolls. The Underking was Shezzarine, that is how the Numundium worked. Wullfharth was Shezzarine, he held influence and the lore writers say so. Talos is Shezzarine because, well that's also obvious. They all joined so that Lorkhan could rise back into the Pantheon. The missing god, no longer missing.

[GoatLiver]

So after Tiber Septim achieved CHIM he joined with the others? Why would he do that, wouldn't he essentially be stronger than Lorkhan was or ever will be and why would he need others to return Lorkhan to the pantheon when he could have just done it on his own, if that where his goal?

[Br3admax]

Well think about it. Lorkhan was bound to the material plane, while the Underking lived. So he sent a version of himself to free himself. They would have joined eventually anyway. They already share a soul. Talos is Lorkhan, that is why Talos rose to replace himself. The parts of the soul joined back together again. The three that helped each other rise to power, became one.

[SmallFries]

Ok I may be wrong on some of this, but will try to explain,

So think of it this way. Everything in the ES universe is 1(come from the same origin). The 2 first concepts where Anu and Padomay. Stasis and change. From these concepts the aurbis was born. The first 2 beings to come into existance where Akatosh(mainly from Anu) and Lorkhan(mainly from Padomay). Afterwards many more beings formed. More peices of the original concepts Anu and Padomay.

When Mundus was created many aedra and other beings where trapped and became the life that is on mundus. Lorkhan was also trapped and cased down for his trickery(whether he let it happen or not is another question) The Other main 8 Aedra escaped and are now worshiped on Mundus, Lorkhan is not. He is know as the missing god.

Lorkhan sends peices of himself to mundus to either champion man or to free himself.
These aspect come in form of various beings who share a part of Lorkhan...part of his soul.

this includes
the Underking/Wulfharth/Pelinal/general Talos.
They are all peices of Lorkhan and have returned to the Patheon of gods under the name Talos
This is why the Thalmor want to remove him. Most Elves beleive he removed them from Artherius when he created mundus

Now Talos achieved chim.

CHIM means you realise that you are part of this one oversoul(the godhead) that was created from ANU and Padomay, yet are able to keep your identity. But that doesn't change the fact that you are still part of the soul that came from Lorhkan
This power could have allowed Tiber Septim to create another reality which is equaly valid where he is both Hjalti and Talos. Of course for someone trying to figure out what is true, this can be a nightmare.

I would suggest reading the following article
http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2 ... nd-part-1/
It is focused on Morrowind and Vivec, however it provides good insite on why ES uses dragon breaks to mess with time and how something like this duality exists

[Minor Edits]

You said a lot there, but Im not sure exactly what point you are trying to make. But I just wanted to say that by several accounts, Lorkhan is one of the last of the Original Spirits to form, not one of the first

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Does a topic dedicated to Talos the physical man really have to turn into yet another CHIM/Lorkhan is Everyone debate? I'm a proponent of that idea but I feel like we've drifted WAY off point here.

[Br3admax]

I didn't do that, this time, I just asked the question that was asked. Besides, back to the topic. Talos the man was someone who manipulated people into making him Emperor. That was his goal, to start the dynasty that had to end. That was his purpose. Only he could bring about misrule to the eight corners of the world.

[GoatLiver]

You said a lot there, but Im not sure exactly what point you are trying to make. But I just wanted to say that by several accounts, Lorkhan is one of the last of the Original Spirits to form, not one of the first

I remember reading he was one of the first, do you have a source for this? It would make this whole thread a lot smoother if people could source their info/theories so I can sort the factually supported from the speculation.

Ok I may be wrong on some of this, but will try to explain,

So think of it this way. Everything in the ES universe is 1(come from the same origin). The 2 first concepts where Anu and Padomay. Stasis and change. From these concepts the aurbis was born. The first 2 beings to come into existance where Akatosh(mainly from Anu) and Lorkhan(mainly from Padomay). Afterwards many more beings formed. More peices of the original concepts Anu and Padomay.

When Mundus was created many aedra and other beings where trapped and became the life that is on mundus. Lorkhan was also trapped and cased down for his trickery(whether he let it happen or not is another question) The Other main 8 Aedra escaped and are now worshiped on Mundus, Lorkhan is not. He is know as the missing god.

Lorkhan sends peices of himself to mundus to either champion man or to free himself.
These aspect come in form of various beings who share a part of Lorkhan...part of his soul.

this includes
the Underking/Wulfharth/Pelinal/general Talos.
They are all peices of Lorkhan and have returned to the Patheon of gods under the name Talos
This is why the Thalmor want to remove him. Most Elves beleive he removed them from Artherius when he created mundus

Now Talos achieved chim.

CHIM means you realise that you are part of this one oversoul(the godhead) that was created from ANU and Padomay, yet are able to keep your identity. But that doesn't change the fact that you are still part of the soul that came from Lorhkan
This power could have allowed Tiber Septim to create another reality which is equaly valid where he is both Hjalti and Talos. Of course for someone trying to figure out what is true, this can be a nightmare.

I would suggest reading the following article
http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2 ... nd-part-1/
It is focused on Morrowind and Vivec, however it provides good insite on why ES uses dragon breaks to mess with time and how something like this duality exists

I have previously read that article, in fact already used info from it in this thread. It was very useful and one of the sources that helped me understand CHIM and how it affects the game word. I understand the concepts of what you said above regarding Lorkhan and his champions which is pretty similar to what Br3admax was saying. There are a few minor details in some of the things you said I thought were different but that may just come down to interpretations, and shouldn't have much impact on Talos or CHIM. However there is a major thing that I have seen/understood differently to you and in alters the lore massively. I could be right, you could be right or we could both be right as is sometimes the nature of TES lore and interpretations or how much you choose to believe can be the difference.

Anyway the Godhead (as I understand it) created Anu and Padomay not the other way around as you stated it. This makes a big difference to the interpretation of the lore. The Godhead could be any number of things like an oversoul, an ultimate God, the player or the players PC/xbox. Anu and Padomay represent the wheel or Aurbis, Anu (1) + Padomay (-1) = 0, take a wheel, turn it sideways, and it looks like an I. That I is the Tower, the Tower is the wheel, and the wheel is everything that exists. Anu, Padomay, the wheel or Aurbis only exist in the dream of the Godhead.

Once Tiber Septim achieved CHIM he was more powerful than Lorkhan (if you believe that was his former self) and is able to make himself a God as he see fit. Regardless of who he did or didn't used to be or share a soul with he no-longer needs those people. When I was looking into CHIM and reading anything I could find on the subject, many views would say that once someone gains CHIM and ultimate power, in realizing existence is only part of the Godheads dream they loose their desire to wield or use that power. My question I now have is why would Talos once achieving CHIM, reform himself with his oversoul and become Lorkhan again? He has more power and realises nothings real anyway so there would be no need or point in doing it.

It just seemed to me to be better supported that the Underking once reunited with the mantela "found the death he had sought for so long", and Talos being only the mortal known as Tiber Septim became a God. I tend to want to see in-game proof of something before I take it as lore, the article you linked to gives sufficient in-game evidence to support its theories on CHIM. However no-one has given any evidence that supports a theory where multiple souls combine to make Talos. Now I'm not saying that its wrong but I would really like to see some evidence one way or another as most of what has been said is just speculation.

This is probably a similar thing to say as why Vivec agreed to a treaty with the Empire when they invaded Morrowind. He had CHIM so he could have easily destroyed the Empire or just not cared if there was a war when he realises that everything is ultimately pointless?

Does a topic dedicated to Talos the physical man really have to turn into yet another CHIM/Lorkhan is Everyone debate? I'm a proponent of that idea but I feel like we've drifted WAY off point here.

Sorry if I didn't state this well in my opening post, but due to knew information on the topic (for me at least) this thread is still going in the direction of what I wanted to know.

I just read back my post and I am not sure I really got across what I was trying to say. All the info is in my head but I'm not sure I correctly put it into words, hopefully you can see what I am trying to say.

[Minor Edits]

You said a lot there, but Im not sure exactly what point you are trying to make. But I just wanted to say that by several accounts, Lorkhan is one of the last of the Original Spirits to form, not one of the first

I remember reading he was one of the first, do you have a source for this? It would make this whole thread a lot smoother if people could source their info/theories so I can sort the factually supported from the speculation

The Khajiit apparently believe he was the very last of the Original Spirits, and several stories suggest that there were many spirits before him.

Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi: "And Fadomai gave birth to Lorkhaj, the last of her litter, in the Great Darkness."

The Monomyth: "Note that Tamriel and the Mortal Plane do not exist yet. The Gray Maybe is still the playground of the Original Spirits. Some are more bound to Anu's light, others to the unknowable void. Their constant flux and interplay increase their number, and their personalities take long to congeal. When Akatosh forms, Time begins, and it becomes easier for some spirits to realize themselves as beings with a past and a future. The strongest of the recognizable spirits crystallize: Mephala, Arkay, Y'ffre, Magnus, Rupgta [sic], etc., etc. Others remain as concepts, ideas, or emotions. One of the strongest of these, a barely formed urge that the others call Lorkhan, details a plan to create Mundus, the Mortal Plane."

Redguard creation myth: "Ruptga was able to sire many children through the cycles and so he became known as the Tall Papa. He continued to place stars to map out the void for others, but after so many cycles there were almost too many spirits to help out. He made himself a helper from the detritus of past skins and this was Sep, or Second Serpent."

Also, Shezarr, the Cyrodiilic version of Lorkhan, was admittedly contrived, more or less, during the First Era creation of the Eight Divines pantheon.