Lovers of the Thalmor!

[Tarquin Dynatus]

When the Cyrodiils first established their empire, they made sure to absolutely exterminate the Ayleids and even destroy any form of Elven literature with unrelenting zeal. Despite these beginnings, they nonetheless developed into a highly cosmopolitan empire with a certain amount of tolerance.

Will raises a good point. The Thalmor may well find themselves capable of similar levels of accommodation and adaptation once the danger of winning the war has passed. If religious fundamentalist/racist Cyrodiils can do it, I see little reason the ambitious and ever adaptable Thalmor cannot either.

[enyamerT]

When the Cyrodiils first established their empire, they made sure to absolutely exterminate the Ayleids and even destroy any form of Elven literature with unrelenting zeal. Despite these beginnings, they nonetheless developed into a highly cosmopolitan empire with a certain amount of tolerance.

Will raises a good point. The Thalmor may well find themselves capable of similar levels of accommodation and adaptation once the danger of winning the war has passed. If religious fundamentalist/racist Cyrodiils can do it, I see little reason the ambitious and ever adaptable Thalmor cannot either.

This is a bit of a misrepresentation here. The Empire established by Alessia contained a significant number of Ayleids, and several Ayleid kingdoms still existed as vassal states. It wasn't until several (human) generations after her death that Marukh and the Alessian Order started their fundamentalist anti-Ayleid pogrom.

Besides, the Alessian Empire was the result of a slave revolt - an underclass fighting for equality at the very least; the Altmer had equality under the Septim Empire, and the Thalmor are now fighting for pure domination. The Thalmor do not strike me at all as accommodating but rather as dictatorial and reactionary.

[Jagged]

I don't see the benefit if distinguishing between a Nazi comparison and a fascist comparison. The Nazis are just the extreme example we are all most familiar.

As for the Thalmor, the ones we meet in Skyrim seem to be text book fascists and seem to be quite open in their desire to rule all and quite open in their use of racial superiority as a justification. At least the Ambassador is refreshingly honest in that regard.

Also while we don't encounter anything as grim as a death-camp (and really, would that be appropriate for a game?) they do operate detention centres where people disappear (were it not for the Dovahkiin).

[OblivionDuruza]

The whole notion of such stark and definite terms as 'good' and 'evil' doesn't sit at all well with me. Life and morality are more complex than the black and white that such terms give credit, and the human psyche and motivation is what is more important than a set of criterion upon which to judge morality or to define or label something as 'good' or 'evil'. To label anyone or anything as 'evil' is merely saying that they do not fit your criterion, but who is to say your set of values is the correct one? Is the majorities definition of 'good' the correct one? What right do any of us have to judge others, we are not, any single one of us, arbiters of right and wrong, or 'good' and 'evil'.

[Will Zurmacht]

Besides, the Alessian Empire was the result of a slave revolt - an underclass fighting for equality at the very least; the Altmer had equality under the Septim Empire, and the Thalmor are now fighting for pure domination. The Thalmor do not strike me at all as accommodating but rather as dictatorial and reactionary.

This misses the point. The point is rather that the Thalmor are politically savvy enough that they could pivot from the kind of fanaticism which helps demonize opponents and win empires, into a mode of governing that placates conquered peoples enough so that the new regime "takes." We are not claiming that the Thalmor are accommodationist now.

To label anyone or anything as 'evil' is merely saying that they do not fit your criterion, but who is to say your set of values is the correct one? Is the majorities definition of 'good' the correct one? What right do any of us have to judge others, we are not, any single one of us, arbiters of right and wrong, or 'good' and 'evil'.

This point of view is a great help to academics, advertisers, nihilists, New Agers, etc. But it's always worth pointing out that moral ambiguity helps no one in the breach. People need reasonably solid guides for action, not the confusion of "no one is qualified to decide," which quickly resolves into mob rule if not anarchy. Every enforced law is an imposition of judgments of "good and evil" over you and others; are these laws justified? Yes, but by their efficacy, usefulness, hoariness, etc. not any kind of inherent quality of justice. But because something isn't true or just doesn't make it any less important for living! A lie that strengthens is better than a truth which weakens: first rule of a good morality.

How does this insight apply to the Thalmor? It implies that an arbitrary but deeply held and strictly enforced code is ultimately better (in that it overcomes obstacles and opponents better) than one that gets confused about good and evil, right and wrong, whether its instincts are "just;" than one that promotes the equality, or at a minimum the tolerance, of all colors and creeds, so long as they "do no harm." Not that I'm imputing this latter sort of code to the Empire; I give it more credit than that.

P.S. I stripped the artificial blackening out of your quote. You don't get to use a pen when the rest of us have to write in pencil!

[GhostOfNumenor]

I don't see the benefit if distinguishing between a Nazi comparison and a fascist comparison. The Nazis are just the extreme example we are all most familiar.

As for the Thalmor, the ones we meet in Skyrim seem to be text book fascists and seem to be quite open in their desire to rule all and quite open in their use of racial superiority as a justification. At least the Ambassador is refreshingly honest in that regard.

Also while we don't encounter anything as grim as a death-camp (and really, would that be appropriate for a game?) they do operate detention centres where people disappear (were it not for the Dovahkiin).

Nearly every text-book Fascist government has had something similar to a detention center, but not to the extreme that Hitler and Stalin had.

There is merit in distinguishing the difference because there's a separate connotation for each. To describe something (legitimately) as "Nazism" is to describe something sweepingly evil, and to describe death en mass. Fascism describes it to a lesser degree, or at least in its early phase. The term "Nazism" has been thrown around so easily lately (real world and on here) that no one seems to stop and think about what it really means.

[Jabbrwock]

This misses the point. The point is rather that the Thalmor are politically savvy enough that they could pivot from the kind of fanaticism which helps demonize opponents and win empires, into a mode of governing that placates conquered peoples enough so that the new regime "takes." We are not claiming that the Thalmor are accommodationist now.

The real question is, are the Thalmor pragmatic political masterminds, or reactionary Mer-supremacist fanatics. If you believe the former, they can potentially rule over a continent spanning empire. I see no evidence of it, though. Everything they do says "fanatic" to me. They're not dumb fanatics, no - they are extremely capable covert operators and political manipulators. I just don't believe their core fanaticism is feigned, and that means there is no pivot room for them to adjust their stance into something that would not burn the Dominion down around their ears long before they established anything like stable continental hegemony.

The best the Dominion can hope for is for internal political maneuvers to remove the Thalmor from their position of power before the rip the Dominion apart. The Altmer are capable of ruling Tamriel, at least potentially. The Thalmor, however, are IMHO not. The Dominion is already as big as a Thalmor-run nation can be. Any further expansion will just drain the Dominion's strength for no real gain.

[Jagged]

Nearly every text-book Fascist government has had something similar to a detention center, but not to the extreme that Hitler and Stalin had.

What I was trying to suggest was that we are not going to get death-camps in a video game like Skyrim, it would be totally inappropriate. So the Thalmor, with their detention centres, are as "evil" as this game is likely to get. Which is why I think the Nazi comparison is entirely fair.

[OblivionDuruza]

Which is true, but talking from the point of view of a human looking in on the world of Tamriel, we have no need to lie in order to maintain order, we are totally detached from the scenario in reality, and thus there is no need to attempt to justify or condemn either side of a conflict that is not as straight-forward as it might seem some suggest. Bethesda has always portrayed varying levels of moral ambiguity in its characters, for example, in Morrowind, the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur, who are equally 'good' and 'evil' in their own manners.

[Hissien]

Which is true, but talking from the point of view of a human looking in on the world of Tamriel, we have no need to lie in order to maintain order, we are totally detached from the scenario in reality, and thus there is no need to attempt to justify or condemn either side of a conflict that is not as straight-forward as it might seem some suggest. Bethesda has always portrayed varying levels of moral ambiguity in its characters, for example, in Morrowind, the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur, who are equally 'good' and 'evil' in their own manners.

And that's just how TES is. Even the quests reach no true end. They always leave more and are left in the start of the end.

[seamus2008]

I don't know why most people hate the Thalmor so much. What is there to hate? They're complete WINNERS. They have baddass outfits, they excel at everything. They speak in that awesome accent. I guess it's why the lawyers and corporate businessmen are so hated irl, because people are jealous of them and of their success. I love the Thalmor, and I wish there was a DLC where you can join them as a faction and start rooting out those Talos worshippers in Skyrim, starting with the crazy priest in Whiterun. Tiber Septim was just a MAN, not a divine you heretics. My Bosmer sneak-assassin-archer and Altmer pure mage are just dying to join them and start kicking some ass with stealth and magic.
It'd be even better if Empire and the Dominion can coexist together and root out these loser rebels

[Red Guardian]

Everyone knows the Thalmor are only using the Empire and will destroy it when they have the chance

[seamus2008]

Everyone knows the Thalmor are only using the Empire and will destroy it when they have the chance

Now THAT'd be a extremely hard choice to make for me, Dominion or Empire, if they ever made a playable war between them. Empire and Stormcloaks was a no-brainer

[Lee 95]

I don't know why most people hate the Thalmor so much. What is there to hate? They're complete WINNERS. They have baddass outfits, they excel at everything. They speak in that awesome accent. I guess it's why the lawyers and corporate businessmen are so hated irl, because people are jealous of them and of their success. I love the Thalmor, and I wish there was a DLC where you can join them as a faction and start rooting out those Talos worshippers in Skyrim, starting with the crazy priest in Whiterun. Tiber Septim was just a MAN, not a divine you heretics. My Bosmer sneak-assassin-archer and Altmer pure mage are just dying to join them and start kicking some ass with stealth and magic.
It'd be even better if Empire and the Dominion can coexist together and root out these loser rebels

They're purposely easily dislikeable; Bethesda made them that way to give players a faction to obviously dislike, unlike other factions (Stormcloaks, Legion, Forsworn, etc.) which have at least some sympathy or moral neutrality to them. That said, the Thalmor are easily dislikeable for the reason that they are, for all intents and purposes, "Nazi-like": they're obviously ethnocentric (racist, supremacist), and they completely disregard morals or respect (because in their eyes, men (humans) deserve neither). They're also incredibly oppressive, as hinted at by the mention of "purges," which can be assumed to be mass killings of elves against the Thalmor agenda, in both Valenwood and the Summerset Isles. In this regard, they can be equated to Nazi Germany, the post-Lenin Soviet Union, and just about every dictatorship or oppressive regime in Human history.

As an aside, Talos, or Tiber Septim, did in fact become a divine. This much is obvious given the role he plays in Morrowind and Oblivion, and the fact that praying at his altar gives you a blessing of the same calibre as that of an Aedric God.

[Jagged]

I don't know why most people hate the Thalmor so much. What is there to hate? They're complete WINNERS.

Not in my game


Having said that, I do intend to do another run through on the other side (I'm currently playing a Stormcloak) and I may well play a nasty Thalmor. In which case the outcomes will be different