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Everything done by America, except the rhetoric stopped War in Vietnam, has been won.

winning is war has different meanings and in vietnam we were getting our asses kicked, no joke, just look at the tet offensive. Any how we also didn't win in irag, we bailed out and called it day

America wins wars because we're manipulative, greedy, controlling, [&@%!].

Frost Mage wrote:America wins wars because we're manipulative, greedy, controlling, [&@%!].

You forgot rich, our government is also rich. Plus I think we start global problems. Know why, then the smart people only have one place to go.

sadly tis so

derp53 wrote:

House of the Wolf wrote:Militarily, we've won every major conflict since the 19th century. Our problem lately has been the political end of things.

were did u get that idea

I found this strange book titled, "American History" and indulged myself.

Seriously, read-up on it. From strictly a military standpoint, we succeeded in Vietnam. It was on the political front, back home, where we lost. There was quite a bit of anti-government/anti-Nixon sentiment; people had become extremely fearful of the war because of the draft, so there was public outcry to end the conflict. Much the same as it was in Iraq, and how it's becoming in Afghanistan.

So, as I said, we've won nearly all of our conflicts from a military standpoint, but have lost a few in the arena of public opinion.

We win the battles, but lose the wars.

America = Robb Stark ?

OMG, Mr. Martin!

derp53 wrote:And bush did lie, he said there were weapons of "mass destruction" but there was nothing beyond the ordinary military gear.

I wrote:I don't believe that Bush didn't think there were actually WMDs in Iraq. He invaded with ulterior motives, certainly, but I don't think he actually lied.

Frosty wrote:Sometimes I feel like our country should be what a government should be for: to protect the people, not to enforce a jurisdiction on the people.

I could not disagree with you more. For the last 70 years, America has been the Police State, and it's been our tax dollars protecting the world. We've been doing an awful job at it, certainly, but it's been us every time. I'm really quite tired of being criticized and ridiculed for going after threats to the world with a small contingent from other nations, only to be publicly and politically stabbed in the back by those other nations when our plans don't pan out. That's not to say that every military effort has been justifiable, but the ones in which we actually got something done have been equally classified as "America thinking it owns the world." I was overjoyed when I heard that France led the military operations in Libya, because for once, it wasn't the Pentagon's massive budget being falsely justified yet again.

Frost Mage wrote:America wins wars because we're manipulative, greedy, controlling, [&@%!].

That's a silly thing to say.

America wins wars because it's good at fighting them. Now, the two things aren't antithetical to one another, but you must understand that if only the above were true, we'd lose every war of conquest we ever try to get into.

War, war never changes.

Sorry counldn't resist

Point is that for a major political consent the USA have to step aside for some time. Lybia was a great example. The other countries wage war and even better in some cases and most certianly in the modern complex battlefield, USA is way past its military glory. Sure, once they were good, not great but good, still modern "wars" or at least as this marginal imperialistic attempt by the Usa as it is seen nowdays by every worldy onlooker, requires political consent first and only than you can enter a battlefield. And sadly, this consent is lacking, I have to admit this for it is true, despite I dont like it a bit.

Still the argument remains, war is a great economic venture and many positive things can yield for it. Problem is that the majority of people lack the spine to wage it. I have seen the ravages of war in my childhood and I was not dettered by it. I understand it as a force equal to a storm or a fire in nature, to cleanse, burn and destroy, so that more beautiful, healthier things can grow and prosper. Some imply my views as narrow but I am confident in the nature of mankind and this nature is conflict, for conflict means evolution, it is natural and it can be scary.

To wage war nowdays, apart from a massive public consent (one of the reasons why the Vietnam campaign ended in disfavour) you need willing and some would say fanatic troops for their adversaries will be such. The wars we should wage now are wars not of politics and ideologies (while they serve as a great "motivation") but war for resources. Water is scarcer by the day, oil is running low, markets are saturated and "conquering" new ones will be soon mandatory, thus I firmly belive that the solution is not in diplomacy for it can provide none, nor in politics, it is war and it is the neccesary thing to do, wheter we like it or not.

We have come full circle as a species. We dared to dream, to explore and to speak our political ideas but right now our prosperity is not threatened by an exterior enemy or by some evil god, but it is threatened by the very shortages of water, air, space, by the very shortage of the very means we need for our survival. Thus war, is the only reasonable outcome and as a westner I can only faintly hope to be amog vicotors for our enemies numbers are way beyond everything we have ever faced. It wont be pretty and it will cost us much, but history tends to repeat itself and at this moment we (in my case Europeans) risk much.

I agree with some of you, I prefer direct action, a legal use of force to say, all in order to give my people a chance, even if a faint one, but such is this world, only if you fight, bleed and kill for a thing you are entitled to it and the neverending increase of the world's population only speeded things up.

Some of you here might parade themselves as the paladins of reason and the human rights, but the only right is to live, and to have this right we will be evermore forced to fight our kin. Only the most utopistic people can belive in a vision where all people are fed, all happy and all secure, sure, they are entitled to this dream, but remember it is only a dream and reality is way harsher than many of our most dire nightmares.

Arterion wrote:but the only right is to live

All of my wut. As you believe in war, I hardly see how you could define the ability to live as a 'right'. Wouldn't it be a privilege in your eyes - something to be taken away? People wouldn't have a right to live if they were forcibly recruited and sent to their deaths in a meaningless war, started for the sake of creating new jobs and obtaining resources. It's not like those resources weren't being used anyway, or do Imperialists have a greater 'right to live' than everyone else?

And what about drug addicts? I take it they don't have a right to live?

Speaking of Imperialism, Arterion, how did the last two wars work out for you guys? I seem to recall a certain Ethiopia kicking your ass, and nearly your entire military ground force surrendering to us subsequent to that.

Pardon for my mispelling, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Right to live as a culture, as a people, as a country and as a religon. A "privilege" that it is only bought by blood and hardship. Sure, we can pretend that we go along with all people, we can illude ourselves that we are equal in all things. Truth be told the only thing that matters is the will to fight and the means to do it.

I do not live in the land of fairy tales, things are starting to look ugly. History educates that those who fight have a "fighting chance" to live, the others are simply destroyed and forgotten. I do not illude myself or coin visions of grandeur, I simply know that if my or any other people are to triumph, to deserve that "right", they will have to commit their entire culture, religion and generations to conflict. It is the human nature and so far it has not disappointed me. War and conflict are a natural thing, part of the natural order. The only thing that matters is to win, how this is achieved, well there are a myriad of ways, each diverse and eache terrible.

While you coined the term imperialist when addressing to me I am only speaking that nature taught us to fight, and fight we must, for it is reasonable, natural and proper.

Oh and Ethiopia and to extent Africa was much fun for both my grandfathers. Promotions, adventure, challenge and conflict were the things they remembered most fondly. I also have the full house of "souvenirs" from there so at least from my part I consider it quite an endeavour, especially since my grandfather opted to return and do some years of service as a medic, pardon if a bit more north.

Still since you seem to be limited to only this case might I remind you of Vietnam and other similar unsavour adventures for the States. Not so an angel, are you?

At least the U.S takes up notable action in the world, i'm going to assume you from Italy Arterion(correct me if i'm wrong about this), Italy has always been in the background of the world stage after WW2 and even in WW2 Italy was indirectly run by Germany, As a U.S citizen there are things i can be proud of in my nations and things that i feel less so.

If you think wars and fighting are so grande, and lead only to glory and profit, Arterion, why don't you join groups such as the French Foreign Legion, or go out and apply with some random mercenary group?

The sole reason for the West's economic success during after the Second Great War was because they adopted socialist ideas, at least temporarily. Everyone contributed, in some way, to the effort, and helped each other whenever/wherever needed. No one shared the daft notion that they shouldn't help their neighbors because of some petty political or lifestyle disagreement.

That's something that likely won't ever happen again, for various reasons. Namely, the right-wing's notions of "greed" and "selfishness" being healthy practices.

Lets not debate on the oh we are Americans, we are superior to everyone here. The wall behind my house has way more history than your entire nation, for it stood ther way before you even knew what America was. Those few stones have seen both wars, numerous civil conflicts, the mighty romans and even the old populations there as several ancient water cisterns not far can tell. The coat of arms in my region and the numerous forts speak volumes of wars which easily pale your brief history.

But we shall not speak of the past for it is a concept that you cannot relate to and I pitiy you for that, I trully do for it must be horrible. In present Italy waged numerous wars, both seen and unseen. I served in a regiment that has the history to have served in the Balkan conflicts, in Somalia, in Iraq, Afganistan and numerous international missions, a service they earned quite a renown for. Not only that Italy mediated in the nascent phases of many new European countries but it provided also as a stamp, belive it or not, for many laws against the organized crime (namely the maxi trials in the Lead Years) and it pioneered quite several reforms.

It is not a loose link like you inflated Americans think, as you think of most of the world from your words here, but a solid, reliable country in Europe that worked its way in numerous challenges of the past century and even more challenges in the past, and lets mention also the greatest art cradle of the westren civilisation. Not only that fought two wars, carried the burden of neutral cities and the rampant conflict, if hidden, between the capitalism and communism but it also voiced its beliefs in most of the pressing European matters. You might say that, oh we wee Amewicans fawt the evil Russians, but in truth the more vicious parts of that conflict were waged in the neutral zones and on the very borders where those two ideologies conflicted and my town of Trieste is a testament of that.

In my region there are signs of conflicts and stuggles that can be traced troughout most of the European history and I am damn proud of it. So pardon me if I am arrogant but it is my birthright, my people and those who know what they have been trough know very well what happend here and how history played its many cruel jokes, all things that pardon me again cannot be understood by the generic americans which you so readily portray.

I am not interested in punting the superinflated ego of you Americans but know this Italy, and to an extent Europe has much more credit that mere words can tell. Point is that you are wheter to pumped out to relaize that others might have more credit than you or it is the fear that you might one day realize that you have in fact very little of yours be it in culture or spirit.


And House, socialism killed many members of my family, robbed us from several houses, and sloughtered many innocents in my region alone, even more in the others. I am entitled to hate it, it is my duty to not forget and I wont. My family lost its roof, its dignity in the years of Tito and from what little I have experienced it, it was horrible. So the only good communist is a dead communist.

Arterion. Quit while you are ahead. Please. You started this foolish argument about wars being positive for countries, and then you ignorantly added your own commentary on the US. As a third-generation member of a military family, please understand I'm not speaking from the stands.

Italy has had its regional conflicts; yes. No one is discrediting them for that. But don't start looking down your nose with some false sense of superiority. Yes, Italy has a relatively rich history, dating back thousands of years. And yes, many innovations and a renaissance can be attributed to Italy. But Italy also wouldn't be where it is right now without the US (and I'm not talking about economically; I'm speaking of its own Bill of Rights and freedoms it enjoys).

You failed to respond to my point about wars not at all benefiting those involved. Instead you went on this random tangent. I'm assuming you agree with me?

If you don't want to "speak of the past" and "pity" us poor, poor Americans, why did you bring it up? Don't make daft arguments, and then complain about the responses you get. It's the measure of debate. Especially with my "superinflated[sic] ego"...

@ Arterion:ok lets not twist what i said, i was only referring to WW2 and after, but if you want to get into that cradle of civilization crap, One- Italy learned many of the scientific, mathematical and philosophical breakthru's from greece which in turn learned many of those discoveries from india, China, and Egypt. Now if you want insult me by calling me a "generic american" well i won't take that lying down. America is made of many different cultures and heritages from China to England and everything else. Let's not forget our way life makes it so we innovate, tho our way of life may not be perfect it's quite different and more dynamic. O and if your bringing up national pride, let me mention that the United States was has never been a puppet state for any other nation and that we earned our place in the world thru hard work, correct political actions and committing ourselves. Sure we've made mistakes but we've also done good as well. On the by let me mention the italian public was ecstatic about the American military saving Europe from Nazi germany

Hard work or was the hard work of african slaves? At least Rome admitted it.

Now Italy being that all estatic is a mediatic propaganda of yours. Ask the old Italians and hear what they say, same for old Germans, French...

Sorry House, but I forgot to answer on the question about the military service. In fact I still serve, and I have served. Three years in the Italian armed forces of which 1 in the Navy as a naval infantry and 2 in the Army as a Dragoon all this right after I hit 18. When the term of service ended I enlisted in the reserve where I oobtained an officer brevet.

Atm I am finishing my studies of law so I can join the Italian Army Commissariat when I graduate for I am already in the graduatroy and I shaped the last year of my studies to fit this role. I am the fifth generation that serves in the armed forces, same goes for my brother and, if her studies go well will go for my sister.

What I do in my free time, apart Skyim and some games is my active partecipation in the volounteer fire team, I hunt and I avidly study all matters related to war in all its forms. So tecnichally speaking I am well set for a miliatry carrer from the cradle on. I admit that narrows my view but I consider service under arms (even the expendability) a reward on its own. Oh and I am European, pardon me if I am arrogant.

not every american was excited about slavery u know, it was in the south that it was promoted and i'm not proud of that chapter of american history and it not rlly propaganda if an italian newsreel shows italian civilians cheering on american soldiers as they marched thru rome, same with france and germany not so much for an obvious reason.

@Arterion-
First, I wasn't referring to your service. Again, I don't particularly care. I'm referring to your comment about wars being good for the countries involved and their economies, and my response which you're free to read from an earlier post on this page.

Second, everyone has their regional conflicts. You haven't responded to my point about how your present-day Italy wouldn't exist as it does without US intervention and support.

You clearly know nothing about US history, so you might want to drop that subject. Our problems with racism through the decades are nowhere near as systemic or as proportionally widespread as the problems Italy has had, and still has, with it. And yes, we had slaves, particularly in the south, but that was common practice by the majority of Western nations of that time, so I'm not seeing the validity of your point?

Without US intervention, it might have existed, without support well the russian east block was too much of a dire threat. Still without all the immigrants, colonists we have sent to the US there would be no US, so in fact America owed us back. And tell me how many of that grunts of yours were in fact second generation italaians, who in fact they returned a favour...with your money and went to fight for their families back in Italy...

The slavery was more of a jib to that almost funny hollier than thou American propaganda above. The American soldiers bar some, were not so holy as you might thik and to not devolve the debate neither the Italian ones or other. It is just that the media feeds you anything and you seem to absorb it avidly. Truth is usually way more different than the immages you see thousand of miles away on your tv screens. And truth is that the Americans destroyed, looted, raped and pillaged across Italy as every other army.

I am off to sleep, good night.

I don't why you decided to conclude that all Americans are cows being led to be slaughtered but no, I don't believe everything the media tells me(don't insult my intelligence by saying "feeds"). No american soldiers are not holy, especially in WW2, but then again nobody was including your nazi backed dictatorship at the time. The American military liberated Italy from an oppressive puppet government during the second world war and the proof is in the pudding. Had we done nothing to help England and Russia in the beginning of 1940 then the entirety of Europe would've been under Nazi control, including Italy.

Arterion wrote:...almost funny hollier than thou American propaganda above.

Says the guy acting like his own country is superior in every way. dat hypocrisy