Lovers of the Thalmor!

[Gideon Dragontongue]

You are correct, it is just a game. I look at it as a game, and play it as such. It is plain and simple: Beth has portrayed the Aldmeri Dominion, specifically the Thalmor, as the Evil that want total control by Ethinic/Racial Cleansing.

Who were the Evils in TES IV: Oblivion? The Daedra, the Daedra Woshipers, and Necromancers. The Humaniod Evils were of Mixed Races.

They could have chosen to not have (one of) the Evils of TES V be specifically of the Humanoid/NPC Races.

It is The Elder Scrolls VI...

...and you can actually do that in Skyrim. You do not have to do any major story questlines, and play as a farmer, miner, smith, ect...

Unfortunatley, there are a few members, who have a certain affinty for the Mer Races, and do not like that fact that the Altmeri Dominion are portrayed as an Evil. They can not understand that not all Altmer are part of the Aldmeri Dominion, or even Thalmor. Altmer were one of my favorite Race/Class Characters in Oblivon: Altmer - Atronach - Battlemage. I do not dislike all Altmer, or even the Mer Races, just because the Aldmeri Dominion is portrayed as an Evil.

Bottom line: Ethinic/Racial Cleansing is Evil. The fact that someone feels that they have to "Justify it, shows that they do in fact know it is Evil. I have to actually question the Ethics of someone who would even try to justify Ethinic/Racial Cleansing.

Bravo. I agree completely.

[Will Zurmacht]

I can role play, but I still have my Moral and Ethic Values which dictate right from wrong. If you know me, you might understand a bit better. I have had to clean up after Civil Wars, Rebellions, and Racial/Ethnic Cleansing. ...so it is not something that I can easily overlook, even in gaming.

There are those that are saying that the Thalmor are not villans, and not Evil, and are trying to justify thier ethinic cleansing, to try to counter the fact they are indeed Villans and Evil.

So far as I understand it your position is this:

I am Jeff
I hold to a moral code
This moral code includes "universal, timeless values," including one which states ethnic cleansing is Evil (capital E)
Thalmor activities run afoul of this code
Therefore, the Thalmor are Evil
Additionally, Evil people are Villains by definition
Therefore, the Thalmor are Evil Villains

This is all well and good; it proves that the Thalmor are Evil and Villainous in relation to Jeff's Code. But what if other codes were possible? Say the Thalmor were in possession of Aldmeri scripture which states Talos worship is Evil and an Abomination (there are several real-world scriptural analogues)... well a code emerges from this that justifies ethnic cleansing of Talos worshippers. And if, as a religious believer, one held that the divine authorship of such a scripture obligated deriving "universal, timeless values" from it, it would be unquestionably Good to ethnically cleanse Talos worshippers (to question this would be to question divinity itself). As a result, the same actions would be simultaneously Good and Evil!

My word, this thread is in danger of becoming a Serious Discussion!

[Gideon Dragontongue]

What he's saying is that he holds by moral and ethical values that could be said to be typical of our society, and the Thalmor run afoul of this. Not that there are not other values, but he doesn't believe in them. The Thalmor doubtlessly hold by their own values, which would justify their acts, but good or evil is completely subjective and so this sort of argument is pointless.

[Witchery]

I can role play, but I still have my Moral and Ethic Values which dictate right from wrong. If you know me, you might understand a bit better. I have had to clean up after Civil Wars, Rebellions, and Racial/Ethnic Cleansing. ...so it is not something that I can easily overlook, even in gaming.

There are those that are saying that the Thalmor are not villans, and not Evil, and are trying to justify thier ethinic cleansing, to try to counter the fact they are indeed Villans and Evil.

So far as I understand it your position is this:

I am Jeff
I hold to a moral code
This moral code includes "universal, timeless values," including one which states ethnic cleansing is Evil (capital E)
Thalmor activities run afoul of this code
Therefore, the Thalmor are Evil
Additionally, Evil people are Villains by definition
Therefore, the Thalmor are Evil Villains

This is all well and good; it proves that the Thalmor are Evil and Villainous in relation to Jeff's Code. But what if other codes were possible? Say the Thalmor were in possession of Aldmeri scripture which states Talos worship is Evil and an Abomination (there are several real-world scriptural analogues)... well a code emerges from this that justifies ethnic cleansing of Talos worshippers. And if, as a religious believer, one held that the divine authorship of such a scripture obligated deriving "universal, timeless values" from it, it would be unquestionably Good to ethnically cleanse Talos worshippers (to question this would be to question divinity itself). As a result, the same actions would be simultaneously Good and Evil!

My word, this thread is in danger of becoming a Serious Discussion!

This ^^^^

While it's just a game, it's an incredibly well thought out and interesting game. 8P

[Red Guardian]

My word, this thread is in danger of becoming a Serious Discussion!

Always happens. Always happens.

[Jeff]

Say the Thalmor were in possession of Aldmeri scripture which states Talos worship is Evil and an Abomination (there are several real-world scriptural analogues)... well a code emerges from this that justifies ethnic cleansing of Talos worshippers. And if, as a religious believer, one held that the divine authorship of such a scripture obligated deriving "universal, timeless values" from it, it would be unquestionably Good to ethnically cleanse Talos worshippers (to question this would be to question divinity itself). As a result, the same actions would be simultaneously Good and Evil!

Well, that would be a lot more plausable than just the standard response so far: An eye for an eye (so that we can all be blind)

Although, I am curious: Who would have authored these scriptures? Which of the Eight would it be, or would it be a Daedra?

If it was one of the Eight, and they did not agree with Talos being the Ninth, would it not have been better to have prevented it in the first place?

Although, it probably is not one of the best analogues to chose, since the most hineous and evilest of crimes on the planet, were done on behalf of a Religion... most of the Racial and Ethnic Cleansing I have had to deal with, were also Religous based. Just because a Diety said to kill everyone that does not worship me, does not automatically make it good... evil is still evil. A good Diety would say to go out, and spread my words, and convert as many as you can. Demonstrate the kindness of my way.

I don't have a problem if you want to make up some lore, so that you can role play an Altmer, who wants to join the Thalmor. It is your game, and you can chose to play it however you want... just as anyone else can chose to play it the way that they want to.

I am quite impressesed with the point of view on this reply: http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?p=648375#p648375
Very well thought out. Although the game is not really set up yet, to allow for a really good playthru as a Thalmor type Character. (Maybe a DLC or Mod may come later on). Meaning it is hard to do most of the Storyline Quests, except maybe the DB. You coudn't do the Civil War Questline, as the Thalmor would not want to end the War. It would be quite awkward for a Thalmor to be the Dovakin, like Tiber Septim was. The TG has that run in with the Altmer Thieves. Didn't the Companions led by Ysgramor drive the Elves from Skyrim?

If someone wants to play a character that Hates the Thalmor for being Racial Cleansing Daemons, that is there game. Let them play it thier way. Why does someone feel they need to point out the Thalmor's Point of Veiw? Every time it is brought up...??? In any topic...???

If it is okay for someone to post thier point of view, then it should also be okay for me to post my point of view.

[Jagged]

My understand is that they believe mer races to be godlike spirits that were trapped in mortal form when the world was created and that the existance of mankind's god holds back the destruction of the world. They desire the destruction of the world because that is the only way for them to return to their godlike state. There might even be something about man getting born again and again while mer die once and die forever. Not sure. I am new to the world of Tamriel.

However belief does not excuse behaviour. I am sure most evil individuals believe what they are doing is justified.

[Anonymous98223]

Yeah thats what I thought to, they hate Talos because he makes them mortal in a way.

[Hissien]

My understand is that they believe mer races to be godlike spirits that were trapped in mortal form when the world was created and that the existance of mankind's god holds back the destruction of the world. They desire the destruction of the world because that is the only way for them to return to their godlike state. There might even be something about man getting born again and again while mer die once and die forever. Not sure. I am new to the world of Tamriel.

However belief does not excuse behaviour. I am sure most evil individuals believe what they are doing is justified.

Hmm..... That could be why mer live longer than men, long life but once vs a short life many times. I believe the realm of the dead is Artherius? that may be where the souls are reincarnated.

[Will Zurmacht]

Although, I am curious: Who would have authored these scriptures? Which of the Eight would it be, or would it be a Daedra?

If it was one of the Eight, and they did not agree with Talos being the Ninth, would it not have been better to have prevented it in the first place?

The best thing about divinely revealed or inspired texts is that there doesn't really have to be a divinity at work at all. The faith of the believer provides the deity; he wants to believe. Tamriel is such a religious place that actually inspired texts, texts that purport to be inspired, or mere reinterpretations of religious texts are all likely to be powerful influences on conduct. We don't actually know what the Thalmor's long-term goals are; at best we've seen a few of the means, without knowing the full significance. Thalmoric repression of Talos could well be part of some religious crusade (with its own cultural justification, as explained before), though like all crusades/jihads, likely with other political and personal motives involved as well.

I will say that if Tamriel is to be delivered from Dominion domination, it needs a lot more Jeffs: people who don't care what the other guy's justification is, label them evil, and use all available means to destroy and drive them out. In other words, people who can out-Thalmor the Thalmor.

[Jeff]

My first post from this Topic: http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?p=648193#p648193

Spoiler:

There are Altmer that do not like/love the Altmeri Dominion or the Thalmor. Just because you like Altmer, does not mean that you have to like Thalmor. Heck, you could even like Altmer, the Almeri Dominion, and not like Thalmor... as Thalmor are the Extremist (enforcers) of the Altmeri Dominion.

I do not like the Altmeri Dominion, Thalmor, Stormcloaks, and Great House Dunmer... all for the same reason. They are Bigots. ... Heck... Skyrim has even made me not like the Blades, since they want to kill all Dragons, even the helpful ones.

I do not hate them, I just do not like them, and have no respect for them. I leave them alone, unless they mess with me, or others.

From the Haters of the Thalmor Topic: http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?p=613543#p613543

Spoiler:

I tend to leave them alone in game, until after a certain quest has them sending out a contract to have me killed, for being a threat to the Thalmor.

...after that... it.is.ON...

I agree, I do not mess with anyone, until they mess with me, or others. If more people did that, then the world would be a lot better place. I believe in Freedom of Choice, of Religion, of Politics, of Sexual Orientation, ect... until those Choices take away the Rights of Others.

Something I have said several times, and even on the previous page: Someone has to STOP, and ask.... When will it END?

and use all available means to destroy and drive them out. In other words, people who can out-Thalmor the Thalmor.

Show me anywhere, where I have said, or even indicated that?

[Will Zurmacht]

I leave them alone, unless they mess with me, or others.

I tend to leave them alone in game, until after a certain quest has them sending out a contract to have me killed, for being a threat to the Thalmor.

...after that... it.is.ON...

"Messing with me or others" is a pretty low threshold to set for action against the Thalmor, seeing as they will have already reached it by the time your character begins Skyrim. But if your character truly wants to avoid the cycle of conflict (physical and spiritual) associated with politics, power, or just life in general, it should avoid all contact with other humanoids and creatures in the game and try to live as a peaceful hermit in the wilderness. Because no one is going to stop seeking power and advantage over others just because you are tired of struggling, or disgusted, etc. When someone gets fed up with life and life's means (which is struggle, including all kinds of sublimated struggle), that is not a condemnation of life or struggle, but merely of the person who yearns for that END which you mentioned. Talos is the perfect counter-example of your call for rest and peace: Talos struggles and overcomes, he is a true hero, never satisfied with his lot and seeking more... not more of a certain something, unless it was power. Man -> emperor -> god. Patron god of war and government (and no liberal democratic government, either): the two most brazen tools of dominance over others! Judged by their actions alone, the Thalmor would seem to have taken Talos as an inspiration...

and use all available means to destroy and drive them out. In other words, people who can out-Thalmor the Thalmor.

Show me anywhere, where I have said, or even indicated that?

Yes, you're right. I tried to give you credit for something I ought not have. I had thought that your forthright condemnation of the Thalmor as Evil would drive you/your character to fight them, wherever and with the most effective means available (in accord with the advice to fight fire with fire), but instead it seems you/your character would prefer to take a hands-off approach, until the Evil ones encroach upon things which you/your character cares about. It's less "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere," and more "no ethnic cleansing in my back yard." By contrast, the kind of moral fanaticism that drives the Thalmor to achieve their goals despite pangs of conscience is one of their greatest strengths, and undoubtedly one of their keys to success.

[Jeff]

I have not only claimed that the acts of Aldmeri Dominion is Evil, but I have also stated that acts by the Alisian Order, and even those of Tiber Septim were Evil.
- Did he ascend to Divinity because of his acts of War and Evil, or because of what those act brought forth later on?

I do suppose I may not have been clear, and sometimes (not always having time to proff properly) it may appear that I am saying that All of the Aldmeri Domion are Evil. Yes, you are correct in saying that people can believe that what they are doing is good. However, evil is still evil, and evil done in the name of good, is still evil. Does this actually make those people evil? We will only know once we are judged, and then it will be to late. ...so Yes, people can believe that it is good to kill someone, but no matter how you try to justify it, the act of killing others is still evil. You can live in the gray area's so that you can sleep at night, but in the end when we are judged, will it make a difference? Unfortunately we will not know this until it is to late. I suppose in Mundas, it will depend on which Diety you chose to worship.

During the game of Skyrim, the Great War is over. The Aldmeri Dominion is not at war with the Empire, so there is no reason to fight them. If I do atack them unprovoked them I am the one that is wrong, and I have commited evil.
- If I defend myself or others, have I commited evil?
- Does it make a difference if I keep to myself, or if I go out looking for trouble?

If you commit evil, does that make you evil?
Is some evil weighed more than others?
If your religion, or diety promotes killing does it make that act not evil?
If Sovengaurd is where the warriors go, does it mean that it is a reward for good, or evil?
If you have to be a warrior, then where do the souls of those that practice love, kindness, and understanding go?
Why do those that chose peace over war go to different places?

When will people stop, and ask... when will it end?

Is it that hard to realize that what you have done was evil, and to stop and change your ways. Yes, it is... If you continue to try to justify your actions, then you will never understand why what you did was evil, and never seek redemption. Will it matter in the end? Again, we will never know until it is to late. You have to stop and look back, and evaluate what you have done, or you will never identify your mistakes, and will be doomed to repeat them.

[Daroska]

Oh I love them for their potential as alchemical ingredients.

I mean four foulmer (thalmor elves) ears with a daedra heart, two chaurus eggs, a single briar heart, moon sugar, vampire dust and
human flesh makes for a hearty poison. Much better than others I've seen. Brilliant for knocking the sense out of any foulmer around!

[Hissien]

Can we let this be? No one can be right or wrong because this is an issue opinion. This isn't the place to debate philosophy.

[Will Zurmacht]

Can we let this be? No one can be right or wrong because this is an issue opinion. This isn't the place to debate philosophy.

Everything is fine, as long as we try to stay on topic (the Thalmor) and stay focused on the relevant ideas, not each other. Of course it's easier to "contribute" that the Thalmor are Nazis while admiring their fashion sense, but that's also superficial and unsatisfying.

[Witchery]

Can we let this be? No one can be right or wrong because this is an issue opinion. This isn't the place to debate philosophy.

Everything is fine, as long as we try to stay on topic (the Thalmor) and stay focused on the relevant ideas, not each other. Of course it's easier to "contribute" that the Thalmor are Nazis while admiring their fashion sense, but that's also superficial and unsatisfying.

I still fail to see how the Thalmor are anything like Nazis. . . ? Of course there are some correlations, but that doesn't mean that every form of oppression is Nazism.

[Hissien]

It could be because they believe themselves generally believe themselves above the other races, and that they practice ethnic cleansing. Though the thalmor are NOTHING by comparison if we are going to compare who did worse things.

[Witchery]

It could be because they believe themselves generally believe themselves above the other races, and that they practice ethnic cleansing. Though the thalmor are NOTHING by comparison if we are going to compare who did worse things.

There are MANY groups that believe they are better than another group. That does not mean they're all Nazis.

[GhostOfNumenor]

I think a more apt description of the Thalmor would be fascists (def: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition)

Given that Nazism was a form of fascism in it's severest extent more people relate back to it, but given that there are no known death-camps or ungodly experiments on their captives by the Thalmor, it's a stretch to compare them to the Nazis.

[Tarquin Dynatus]

I don't see how being racist makes them Nazis. Racism is a pretty normal part of existence in just about every culture.

[GhostOfNumenor]

There's different levels of racism, however, and fascism often places a heavy emphasis on race/ethnicity. The Thalmor practicing racism does not solely make them fascists, but rather the totality of their known actions/beliefs.

[Hissien]

I'm not saying they should be or are related to Nazis, I am merely saying some of the reasons people say they are related.

[Jabbrwock]

I hold the Thalmor in contempt for their fundamentally self-defeating ideology. You cannot create and maintain a continent-spanning empire on Tamriel while embracing an ethos that renders more than half of the continent's racial groups your irreconcilable enemies. The Thalmor can rule Summerset/Alinor, Valenwood, and *MAYBE* High Rock depending on how ecumenical they are feeling about the Manmer. Every other province is destined to be nothing better than a perpetually bleeding wound on the Dominion's body, draining its strength until it collapses of its own stupidity.

Note: I'm basing this on my belief that the Thalmor belief in Mer supremacy does not include the Orcs, and that the Dark Elves will want nothing to do with a group whose core belief is that everything the Chimer originally left Summerset to escape is perfect and should be re-created.

[Will Zurmacht]

I hold the Thalmor in contempt for their fundamentally self-defeating ideology. You cannot create and maintain a continent-spanning empire on Tamriel while embracing an ethos that renders more than half of the continent's racial groups your irreconcilable enemies. The Thalmor can rule Summerset/Alinor, Valenwood, and *MAYBE* High Rock depending on how ecumenical they are feeling about the Manmer. Every other province is destined to be nothing better than a perpetually bleeding wound on the Dominion's body, draining its strength until it collapses of its own stupidity.

Note: I'm basing this on my belief that the Thalmor belief in Mer supremacy does not include the Orcs, and that the Dark Elves will want nothing to do with a group whose core belief is that everything the Chimer originally left Summerset to escape is perfect and should be re-created.

Victors can afford to be magnanimous; winning an empire and governing it are two different beasts. A victorious Dominion could well develop a practical streak, and strike the right balance between accommodation of subject cultures and the slow process of assimilating those cultures (converting them) to the Dominion model. The Thalmor certainly seem politically savvy enough for it.