Lore General Discussion!

[The SheoDovah]

But that septim only defeated Dagon by turning into Akatosh's avatar and it was a close call. Martin could have easily taken an arrow to the neck due to the entire IC being invaded by Daedra. The COC was powerful but he would be nothing in Akaviri from what we know of it unless he/she went there as Sheogorath but we have no idea what they could do to a Daedric Prince.

[Woodhouse]

Yea exactly. Witch makes me think that Dagon would not want to attack Akaviri, where Tosh Raka, who is presumably a divine being (Hence his name being Akatosh rearranged), lives.

[Glyre]

I can't imagine that it would matter much to Dagon. At some level, being the prince of destruction, I think that being able to do some damage would be enough for him—and that would certainly be possible regardless of the capabilities of the Akaviri. Furthermore, and this goes beyond this topic, it seems erroneous to attribute to Daedric princes the same type of reasoning that a mortal (or really anyone who could stand to lose things finite) military commander might use in making decisions. Being effectively immortal and static in nature there are no long-term consequences of defeat. For that reason it seems to me that there is no reason why Dagon would "not want" to attack Akavir.

[Br3admax]

Just to throw this out there: the place is Akavir. Akaviri is anything originating from Akavir. Like American or European. Akaviri is not a place, Woodhouse. Also Tamriel is the center of creation. That is why Dagon wants it. The Towers are in Tamriel. The Heart was, and still is, in Tamriel. Tosh Raka even wants Tamriel. All else is pointless in the Mundane(I mean in Mundas) sense. Tamriel will be place where the final battles take place. Not Akavir.

[AbiwonKenabi]

Poor Akavir. They just have center-of-the-divines'-attention envy. All they want is to be featured in a TES story, that MUST be why they invade Tamriel from time to time

Patience, my pretties...you'll have your chance....

Also, completely unrelated but by any chance, Woodhouse, do you watch Archer?

[Br3admax]

I like the mystery. And do we really need ANOTHER invasion. Again. Ghosts, ash spawn, werewolves, daedra, aurons, dragons, vampires, cultists to name a few. Invasions need to stop.

[AbiwonKenabi]

I like the mystery. And do we really need ANOTHER invasion. Again. Ghosts, ash spawn, werewolves, daedra, aurons, dragons, vampires, cultists to name a few. Invasions need to stop.

Peace time is too boring to be the plot of a TES game unfortunately. Unless we go like Harvest Moon-style sim game or something. That would be interesting...

[The SheoDovah]

Ah but something could happen during the peaceful time in the next province and only you are aware of the plot. Yes, I'm aware it's cliched but let's face it,TES is not known for it's plots. I do hope that they stop with the entire world is going to be destroyed angle but you are the chosen one angle as that is starting to get old. Just have us be a normal citzen that stumbles accross the threat and ends up being a hero through hard work. The Dovahkiin was just a bit of a lazy hero.

[AbiwonKenabi]

Ah but something could happen during the peaceful time in the next province and only you are aware of the plot. Yes, I'm aware it's cliched but let's face it,TES is not known for it's plots. I do hope that they stop with the entire world is going to be destroyed angle but you are the chosen one angle as that is starting to get old. Just have us be a normal citzen that stumbles accross the threat and ends up being a hero through hard work. The Dovahkiin was just a bit of a lazy hero.

Yeah, I guess they could make it less "destiny"-type stuff and more like "serendipity" where you just happen to be the right person for the job. Although, I dunno, a franchise like Zelda can pull off the "chosen one" every time, I'm sure they could do something with it. They could actually show how we got in prison for example, make us feel like we were an actual normal person before being "chosen".

[Woodhouse]

We will never just be a regular guy. Either we will be a chosen one like the dragonborn or a "choosing" one and become a shezarrine through force of will. Indeed, the nerevarine was both, as a born reincarnation of nerevar and along his way became a hero, or shezzarine

[Linkuya]

So I'm playing Bloodmoon and I wonder, what's the story behind those Reiklings?

[GodsBePraised]

We will never just be a regular guy. Either we will be a chosen one like the dragonborn or a "choosing" one and become a shezarrine through force of will. Indeed, the nerevarine was both, as a born reincarnation of nerevar and along his way became a hero, or shezzarine

How can one force incarnation?

So I'm playing Bloodmoon and I wonder, what's the story behind those Reiklings?

Altmer use Goblins as slaves or soldiers right? Perhaps when the Aldmer left for Skyrim they brought with them Goblins.. and as the Aldmer became Falmer the Goblins became Reiklings.

Probably not. Doesn't totally explain why they seem to be native to Solstheim.

[Woodhouse]

We will never just be a regular guy. Either we will be a chosen one like the dragonborn or a "choosing" one and become a shezarrine through force of will. Indeed, the nerevarine was both, as a born reincarnation of nerevar and along his way became a hero, or shezzarine

How can one force incarnation?

You can't force incarnation. But he did force his becoming of a hero. In the sixth sermon of Vivec, Vivec says "Six are the guardians of Veloth, three before and they are born again, and they will test you until you have the proper tendencies of a hero."

[Pilaf The Defiler]

It was said by the wise woman that when you meet her you are not the Nerevarine, but instead a person who may BECOME the Nerevarine. That says a lot about how incarnation and mantling work in TES. It's the same with being Dragonborn. I believe that not every single person in line to the Septim throne was actually Dragonborn, but that they BECAME Dragonborn at a moment chosen by Akatosh.

[GodsBePraised]

It was said by the wise woman that when you meet her you are not the Nerevarine, but instead a person who may BECOME the Nerevarine. That says a lot about how incarnation and mantling work in TES. It's the same with being Dragonborn. I believe that not every single person in line to the Septim throne was actually Dragonborn, but that they BECAME Dragonborn at a moment chosen by Akatosh.

.. well.. MK says.. via Nu-Hatta

"The Stormcrown mantled by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora."

[Woodhouse]

Maybe there are different forms of incarnation? For example, Morihaus, seems to be a clear cut son of Kyne. I don't think much mantling was necessary for him. Especially if you consider the idea that minotaurs are the not quite so holy children of him and Alessia

[GodsBePraised]

It is odd. On the subject of the Stormcrown, Ysmir/Hjalti/Arctus were all incarnations of Lorkhan...

The same text also mentions the Nerevarine being in the pantheon via incarnation. Also kind of odd, because incarnation usually is the incarnation of a god.. while the Nerevarine is usually considered a re-incarnation as in he is Nerevar returned.

I'm not sure what Morihaus would be. A male bull incarnation of a sky-godess? Also odd. Pelinal is an incarnation of Lorkhan (possibly the mixture of Akatosh and Shezzar) and Morihaus calls him his uncle..

[Woodhouse]

Remember though that Tiber mantled Lorkhan, but was, I assume, born a dragonborn.

[GodsBePraised]

Remember though that Tiber mantled Lorkhan, but was, I assume, born a dragonborn.

Born a dragonborn and incarnation of Lorkhan. Same with Wulfharth and, I'm making assumptions here, the Last Dragonborn. Seems to be the Ysmir criteria.

[Marelo]

It was said by the wise woman that when you meet her you are not the Nerevarine, but instead a person who may BECOME the Nerevarine. That says a lot about how incarnation and mantling work in TES. It's the same with being Dragonborn. I believe that not every single person in line to the Septim throne was actually Dragonborn, but that they BECAME Dragonborn at a moment chosen by Akatosh.

.. well.. MK says.. via Nu-Hatta

"The Stormcrown mantled by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora."

Yeah, the incarnation road is built from destiny. But who's doing the building? I'd say the person doing the incarnating.

The Nerevarine only became the Nerevarine by fulfilling the prophecy that described the Nerevarine. They could have done otherwise, or failed in their endeavor! But they chose to fulfill the prophecy, chose to build that road, chose that destiny, and succeeded.

The destiny is described, but not prescribed. It is left up to the individual whether to follow it and become what it describes.

A building is built according to the blueprints, but the blueprints don't say who's doing the building (aside from assuming a certain level of competence). Same with this road, or so I'd like to think.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

So I'm playing Bloodmoon and I wonder, what's the story behind those Reiklings?

An Altmer scholar believed they're devolved Falmer. They may very well be. Who says a race can't evolve in two different ways? All the living Elf species descended from the Aldmer, so why can't the Snow Elves evolve into both Rieklings on Solstheim and blind deformed Falmer in Skyrim?

Another theory I had is that they're survivors of the Akaviri invasions of the First Era and early Second. We're told the Akaviri used goblin slave labor, and that they used small islands as staging areas for their land invasions. They could have left some goblins behind.

[Mod-Loving Wood Elf]

So I'm playing Bloodmoon and I wonder, what's the story behind those Reiklings?

An Altmer scholar believed they're devolved Falmer. They may very well be. Who says a race can't evolve in two different ways? All the living Elf species descended from the Aldmer, so why can't the Snow Elves evolve into both Rieklings on Solstheim and blind deformed Falmer in Skyrim?

Another theory I had is that they're survivors of the Akaviri invasions of the First Era and early Second. We're told the Akaviri used goblin slave labor, and that they used small islands as staging areas for their land invasions. They could have left some goblins behind.

When I first saw pre-release shots of falmer in Skyrim, my first thought was, "Oh, hey, rieklings are coming back!"

When I played bloodmoon, I believed the high elf guy about the rieklings being snow elves because it sounded cool to me. But I think that now that Bethesda has actual snow elves, theyre classifying the rieklings as goblin creatures instead with no relation to falmer. Heck, the rieklings in Dragonborn are apparently based off goblin prototype designs, right?

Still, I want to think of the rieklings as elves. Sounds cooler.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Someone mentioned Morihaus earlier. He was supposed to be Kyne's physical son. Not a reincarnation or mantling but a man born from Kyne's womb. Weirder things have happened i.e. Reman born from a hill.

[Da_BossMaN69]

I just want to ask two things: why is he still called Lorkhan? Because some elven/imperial
scholars say so? Don't forget which race it was that has the most knowledge of this god. And I mean we go into his realm afterall and what does Tsun call him? Shor. I mean don't forget every book you read in game the authors can be wrong in which case they are.

And even if MK calls him that, who cares he's no longer in charge of lore, his advice is respect as is his input, but at the end of the day Beth, and more specifically Tod gives the final word, and it seems to me the final word is that his name is Shor.

I mean it's like Beijing, for centuries all the Europeans called it Peking, but were they the original people to name that city or even live there? No the Chinese were and as such they had final say as it was their city and they say its Beijing who are we to argue? Likewise who Are the elves to call Shor Lorkhan, when its clear his preferred name is infact Shor.

Second, why are we still working with Dragons being Akaviri creatures on the wiki, when its early established they are lesser Aedra, whose origins come from no land on Nirn or Mundus for that matter.

Just a few minor gripes in regards to the Lore

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I'm not even sure what you're arguing against or for when it comes to Lorkhan. Are you suggesting that since we visit Sovngarde that only the Nordic religion holds valid beliefs? First of all we don't even lay eyes on Shor himself. We see Tsun and many other ancient dead heroes but are told Shor is absent. We frankly have more physical interaction with Lorkhan than Shor in these games since we can touch his heart in Morrowind. And if you believe Pelinal was Shezzarine there's yet another belief validated - that of the Imperials.

The page on Lorkhan is valid because frankly that is his name in most belief systems. It's an old Aldmeri word for "Doom Drum" and even the people who call him Sheor or Sep recognize who it references. It's the same as Kyne and Kynareth. Nords would know who you meant either way.

I'm also confused as to why you use this as evidence people put MK's work above other people's. Skyrim's lore still heavily refetences his stuff - notably PGE 1 and Varieties Of Faith - but also put its own spin on the lore with liberal reinterpretations by Kuhlmann, Nesmith and the like. Is it wrong to cite the Monomyth when Bethesda still puts it in their games? Is game level lore obsolete because other lore contradicts it? The truth of the matter is that Lorkhan and Shor represent two distinct ideas flavored by cultural bias and should be treated as distinct characters just as Auriel and Alkosh should.

As for Dragons Skyrim filled in a lot of the gaps and retconned old ideas but still left a lot unanswered. You claim we've had some knowledge they're aedric or something but I doubt your sources. We're given claims and beliefs by men and Dragons but nothing concrete or comprehensive. About all we know is Dragons ruled Mundus before Men arrived and were treated as gods. Cults revered them and one was imported from Atmora to Skyrim. However we still have lots of sources mentioning them as war mounts and objects of hunts by Tsaesci in Akavir. Even new lore in Skyrim maintains some originated there and migrated west. As far as I'm concerned there is still lots of room for healthy discussion and debate on the subject of reptilian godkings. Nothing is settled or proven at all. We could talk about it and tweak pages for years.