Miami Police commit Hate Crime

[Dark Lord Cam]

Teeth ARE a deadly weapon. There's some truth to zombies in moves being able to rip flesh off your bones. The Human mouth is in fact capable of it. Now, if the cop hadn't shown up when he did, the victim could have died of blood loss, or until the suspect chewed straight through his wind pipe.

Also, the man is quite faceless now. I looked up the pictures on google.

Don't follow my example. o.O

[House of the Wolf]

Actually, being that I'm from the actual world of law enforcement, and someone who was trained both practically and academically, my relatively-expert opinion is that the officer (from the description of events) was within the right.

The Use of Force Continuum dictates that an officer judge the situation and determine what type of force or threat of force he or the public are faced with. A person need not be armed with an actual weapon to be considered deadly to the officer and/or the public. Someone hyped-up on chemicals (as this man allegedly was) is an extremely dangerous individual because of the aforementioned side-effects discussed a few pages back. Essentially, they become someone who is super-strong, resistant/immune to pain, and without mental faculty to actively control their actions.

You do not know/understand what this is and/or what it looks like until you've seen it. I've had the good fortune to never have seen it in person, but we studied it at-length in class, including extensive footage of how people behave when they're on this crap. It is my understanding that the majority of large police departments provide similar training in this scenario, as many officers have been hurt/killed by people on these chemicals.

The officer, through his training, knowledge and experience, recognized that this individual was a clear and present danger to both himself, and the public. Also due to his training, knowledge and experience, he recognized that attempting to apprehend this particular individual under his specific circumstance would put not only the officers' lives in danger, but also increase the victim's chances of further injury and/or death.

It's always easy to play Monday morning quarterback and second-guess these officers, but you never know until you've been in their situation.

[DorostheConqueror]

Teeth ARE a deadly weapon.

*sigh* I can see you're intent on being silly. No, no they aren't. And even if you could convince a judge that they ARE, you do realize that this would set a precedent so broad that the police would be fully in their rights to shoot anyone at all, except for very young babies, very elderly men, and English people?

the victim could have died of blood loss

"Could have". That's an awful lot of "coulds", and doesn't explain why the officer needed to shoot the victim dead right then and there. If it was a matter between engaging in police brutality on the one hand and simply walking away, allowing the victim to continue feasting in peace for another forty or fifty minutes, then maybe we could forgive the officer his itchy trigger finger... after stripping him of his badge and gun and possibly sentencing him to prison for murder. But it wasn't.

And the guy's not "faceless". He's still got some skin on the lower part of his face, and you can tell where his eyes and mouth are.

Someone hyped-up on chemicals (as this man allegedly was) is an extremely dangerous individual because of the aforementioned side-effects discussed a few pages back.

"Very dangerous"... or "deadly"? That might not seem like a big difference to you, Mister Wolf, but it's a huge difference to the people who can and do lose their lives because of overzealous interpretations of force, and to the criminal rights advocates and watchdog groups who are certainly looking at this case very closely, even as you run your "Monday morning" linebacker defense.

Besides, I find it hard to believe that this officer somehow had access to the coroner's toxicology reports concerning the drugs in the victim's system, detailing exactly how they turned a mild mannered black man into a hulking mutant-powered supervillain, mere seconds after the cop arrived on the scene. Is there some Minority Report crap going on that I don't know about? As an expert in the field, I'd love to hear your input on this amazing foresight.

The officer, through his training, knowledge and experience, recognized that this individual was a clear and present danger to both himself, and the public.

So you're saying that the officer's training was inadequate, then? That his department failed to mention the very simple difference between "a threat" and "a delirious naked man", and worse, that his training prepared him to respond to the publicly intoxicated with lethal force? And this in Miami, a major city where drug addicts roam the streets like herds of half-baked cattle?

Suddenly, Dexter takes on a whole new meaning.

[House of the Wolf]

Why Doros, I had no idea you were actually there. Nor was I aware that you've actually seen/experienced what these individuals are capable of when on these hallucinogenic-chemicals, because clearly...you truly believe that you can not only pry them away from whatever they're doing, but also pin them to the ground and pry their hands behind their back. You must be one of the smart ones to wait until after they're tired from lifting your car, throwing you and your partner around like a rag-doll, and after being tased several times without effect. All of this, and your clear grasp of law and public safety. Kudos, you clever dog, you!

[Dark Lord Cam]

Teeth ARE a deadly weapon.

*sigh* I can see you're intent on being silly. No, no they aren't. And even if you could convince a judge that they ARE, you do realize that this would set a precedent so broad that the police would be fully in their rights to shoot anyone at all, except for very young babies, very elderly men, and English people?

Teeth can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon. They don't even need to be artificially sharpened. Our chompers are capable of enough force to tear at flesh. Heck, we do it all the time whenever we eat meat. There's also the possibility of infection, particularly if the guy had just been eating a Human's face.

[DorostheConqueror]

You must be one of the smart ones to wait until after they're tired from lifting your car, throwing you and your partner around like a rag-doll, and after being tased several times without effect.

No, no, I'd be one of the smart ones who says, "Well, this is going to be a bit tricky. Rather than work for the arrest, why not just shoot the guy dead and pop off to the donut shop? It's OK! The guy's an ethnic minority, and it's not like the media's going to call me out on THIS one, har har. Gosh, I wonder what episode of CSI is on tonight?"

Fortunately for you all, I'm not a cop. Unfortunately, apparently there's plenty of them that think exactly the same way I do.

Heck, we do it all the time whenever we eat meat.

When you chew meat. Meat that has been killed, removed from the carcass, deskinned, sliced, and cooked at 350 for twenty minutes or so. Ever try killing and eating a fully conscious cow using nothing but your teeth? How about killing and eating a fully conscious, 200 lbs Miami cop- and his partner!- armed with a tazer, truncheon, two cans of pepper spray, a pistol, and a badge with really really sharp edges?

Twenty minutes, and he couldn't kill an unconscious homeless man with his teeth. You give me two minutes, and I could kill an unconscious homeless man with a plastic spork.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Well, I don't know about you, but I like my cows raw.

[House of the Wolf]

A tazer, a truncheon, and pepper spray are all pain-compliance tools. This individual, on the type of drugs he was on, would never have felt that. Case study not only proves that, but also that two fully-grown men at peak physical condition are nowhere near strong enough to hold this person down. Not quite sure what you're understanding about that, Doros.

[Fiar]

Mmmm, I see we're at this again. Alright Doros, I got more counters for ya.

Teeth are a deadly weapon, we are capable of applying up to 200 pounds of pressure from them, which is overkill to tear flesh. Why don't we do this in everyday life? We'd hurt ourselves, only someone on drugs and wouldn't recognize pain could do this. So simply, when we're normal, we know better.

As for the could(s), why yes, they are called variables. Blood loss is a variable he had to consider. Also consider it is very possible he could've went into shock and died from having his face torn off. Simply, the more time he procrastinated in acting, would've been the difference in critical condition, dead at the scene, or dead in a matter of hours or days. If you are losing blood at a consistent rate, and it's not clotting, you're chances of surviving without medical attention gradually decrease at different rates, depending on a wide range of variables.

So the officer realized this, and did act in the time he felt he had.


And you are technically right, on deadly and dangerous meaning two different things, and differing degrees of risk. However, that is a moot point at this juncture, as the man could have been dangerous, but the victim's wounds were more than likely deadly.


And yes, as mentioned drugs can free you up of prior physical limitations during the duration. A person with an adrenaline rush, can easily overpower someone who could have very well been equal in strength and condition. It's a survival mechanic we all have, and if someone feels no pain, is on a rush on this level, than your training won't mean balls if they have no effect. It took several bullet shots to bring this man down, CQC won't prevail.

It's like being trained to handle animals, than one goes wild and attacks you. Sure, you've been trained to handle them, but when you are being mauled by an animal who wants your blood; your training can bugger all it won't do you much good. And if you want to respond that this parallel doesn't add up, it does. We have primal instincts that bring us back to the days where we had to live, eat, and survive like animals.

And on a final note, regardless of it taking 20 minutes, he could have killed him in an instant if he desired. He was either too doped up to do it, or didn't care that he was suffering and wanted to enjoy himself...Until the cops arrived. It wouldn't have been that hard for him prior to have torn the man's throat out.


So in simple, this was an attempted murder, with the right course of action taken. He may have been doped up, he may have been trying to cannibalize a man who was still alive. However his actions, cognitive or not, would have lead to that man's death without the proper intervention. The assertion of it being a hate crime is a fallacy on your part, Doros..Intentional fallacy or not, not sure.

[lostlast]

Why are the cops always at fault and in the wrong?

IF you are doing the wrong thing in society, drugged, drunk or completely sober. Whether you are white, black or of any race.
When a person of authority asks you to stop what you are doing, then (insert common sense if you WANT to have human rights here) you stop and obey. Whether you were in the right or in the wrong at the time is irrelevant, it can be SIMPLY sorted out once you have stopped doing what has made a figure of authority to ask you to do so.

Man attacking another man (dare say I suggest the "What if it was a member of your family being attacked" scenario) let’s forget the fact the attacker had already taken away the victims’ rights. Asked to stop, he did not, dead. SIMPLE.

(Rolling my eye's and in my most sarcastic voice) Aaaaand yeeeeeees, I totally mean if you are riding your push bike on the road without a saftey helmet and a cop asks you to stop and you don't he can shoot you.

If only we could all get together and have one big common sense hug.

[Dark Lord Cam]

I agreed with you up until the point you got all NRA on us.

[Dark Spark]

Do not forget this: the cop is a human being. There is a tendency to think of them as something other than that (through the grace of their training, some people expect them to be something other than that).

That is a fallacy that will get you killed if you goof off as some impassioned human being expecting to be confronted by a Law-o-Matic 2000, one who'll use a purely objective and unerring application of force to any situation no matter how zany you make the situation.

Don't go dancing atop strangers' cars in a Darth Vader costume. Chances are the cops will not get the joke.

You may not like it. I may not like it. But that is the way of the world, and the world is going to kill us someday. The trick is to try to be a little more clever than the common schmuck.

[lostlast]

/\ Couldn't agree more /\

[Ragnarok]

bull. human or not, as a human you either have the capacity and discipline to hold yourself to a higher standard or you do not. if you do not and that higher standard is law then you have no capacity to work in law enforcement. THAT'S the main problem. employing unqualified individuals in roles of critical responsibility.

"only human" is no excuse to act like one of the animals.

[Dark Lord Cam]

*shakes head*

None of us know the cop. None of us know anything about the cop. Yet here we are, questioning his motives and his training and his discipline. We act like we know better, yet we've never been in a similar situation. We look at this case with our biased views and automatically figure the cop for a butcher.

I'm willing to assume that's a product of our culture, always questioning authority, always trying to be the morally right individual, because we think the other guy is in some form not conforming to our own ideals. Sure, claim all you want that you'd be the bigger man in the exact same scenario and try to subdue the suspect without harming him or the victim. Go ahead, I won't call you out on your BS, I also won't jump into your foxholes and question why you choose to capture this particular enemy instead of gutting him like you're trained to do. I won't do it, because it's petty and short sighted.

[Jeff]

Monday Morning Quarterbacks are always right.

[Avron the S'wit]

There was also just a case of this in New Jersey...not that I'm surprised. We have weirder things than zombies.

[Fiar]

*shakes head*

None of us know the cop. None of us know anything about the cop. Yet here we are, questioning his motives and his training and his discipline. We act like we know better, yet we've never been in a similar situation. We look at this case with our biased views and automatically figure the cop for a butcher.

I'm willing to assume that's a product of our culture, always questioning authority, always trying to be the morally right individual, because we think the other guy is in some form not conforming to our own ideals. Sure, claim all you want that you'd be the bigger man in the exact same scenario and try to subdue the suspect without harming him or the victim. Go ahead, I won't call you out on your BS, I also won't jump into your foxholes and question why you choose to capture this particular enemy instead of gutting him like you're trained to do. I won't do it, because it's petty and short sighted.

Shut up Gary, when you can beat Ash in a fair duel, than I'll actually take you seriously.

*coughs*

However, I tried playing this card and mentioning what I'd have done. However, as HoTW pointed out, this man would have bee resistant to all normal means. So no, I actually do acknowledge that any methods I'd try would be in vain, and that this cop was in the right for his actions. More so since he more than likely took in many variables relating to the victim and the attacker and realized he had to act in a quick manner.

The cop deserves the praise that all other cops do for doing their thankless job.

Of course, I'm just echoing myself now, if you read my prior post, you'd realize that I've kind of said this already.

[Dark Spark]

... THAT'S the main problem. employing unqualified individuals in roles of critical responsibility...

I know.

That's a problem that is not going to go away. The trick is find a way to work above that problem.

It take brains, though.

[House of the Wolf]

It's not a problem of intelligence; it's a problem of integrity, in 99% of the cases.

[Dark Spark]

It's not a problem of intelligence; it's a problem of integrity, in 99% of the cases.

You can't have integrity if you don't know what is right and what is wrong with the world. That takes intelligence.

We are so going in...

[Ragnarok]

I'm willing to assume that's a product of our culture, always questioning authority, always trying to be the morally right individual, because we think the other guy is in some form not conforming to our own ideals.

and here is the root of the problem ... the brainwashed mentality that authority should never be questioned under any circumstances. newsflash. ALL "authority" should be routinely questioned ... and on a regular basis because it's abuses of authority that lead to atrocity, not abuses of impotence ...

the only true authority anyone actually has is over themselves, but more often than not the case is to apply and exert "authority" over others that one refuses and rejects for themselves.

I also won't jump into your foxholes and question why you choose to capture this particular enemy instead of gutting him like you're trained to do.

except cops aren't supposed to be trained to gut civilian citizens. this is the military mindset that is pervading our police force and transforming us into a police state that I expressed my concern about. military are trained to gut the enemy. the US citizenry isn't the "enemy", but that mindset is becoming increasingly prevalent.

I remeber even when I was younger in the military, I remeber talking to both ex-law enforcement and ex-military and they all agreed this was becoming a problem. the "old guard" thought for themselves and knew enough to disobey and disregard an unlawful order, but then they started getting put out to pasture and replaced with younger generation that simply followed orders. they were mindless tools. human guns. point at a traget, designate and pull the trigger and *BOOM*. the fallout didn't appear until later when their humanity resurfaced and re-exerted itself.

this is exactly why the military was never allowed to operate on domestic soil. the civilian citizenry aren't enemy combatants. they are entitled to due process. that means they have the exact same rights even accused of a crime or caught in the commission of a crime until they are actually convicted in a court of law. that is the ONLY way ... due process ... that civilian rights may be denied.

the fact is this cop played judge, jury and executioner and denied this man his rights as a US citizen and civilian ... not enemy military combatant. the military is trained to act, engage and overcome through escalation and firepower. that is NOT acceptable among our law enforcement against our citizenry on domestic soil.

the only way deadly force was authorized was when deadly force was initially brought to bear when I was a kid growing up, but the times they're a changin' and we have people who have become very good at clouding the distinctions and lines in order to advance and escalate draconian public policies and tactics that would never have been acceptable prior to "911".

now fear rules supreme and logic and reason take a back seat. whatever it takes to "protect". the fact is the police are required to "protect and serve" that means everyone. even the "perps". they're still full citizens with full rights that must be recognized and upheld until convicted in court.

*edit*

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin

[House of the Wolf]

@Ragnarok-- If you're over 21, you're more than welcome to apply to your local police department. If you're that adamant that they're doing the wrong things, you could always make a difference in that regard.

[Ragnarok]

I'm way OVER the age requirements and this is a police state. dissenters get railroaded, steamrolled and ultimatley ... silenced ... why do you think I'm homeless?

[House of the Wolf]

Hard to tell over the internet Anyhow, just throwing it out there.

Listen, I got screwed by the police, too; it's why I'm no longer employed with them. But I don't demonize the entire department, or make it worse than what it actually was. In some ways, it was my fault, what happened to me, and I recognize that. But I don't lose perspective and start going all anarchical simply because I got a (metaphorical) fat-lip.

And, to me, that is what you're doing. Instead of looking at the totality of the circumstances, and realizing that you don't know what you'd do in that situation, you choose to demonize an officer who saved the life of someone who was literally having his face torn and chewed-off by someone completely deranged from an extremely dangerous substance.