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Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Nobody ever said the word "never" during SI's main quest.

Sheogorath said "You'll be me. A new me to fight the old." and also something about how you won't be a Prince YET. Also, Jyggalag said "perhaps you will grow to fit your station."

I havent played SI yet
im planning on doing it , but at the moment im working on what others have told me about it

What I'm trying to say is that it's not made perfectly clear if you can actually become a Daedric Prince, but it's implied you MIGHT be able to in time.

I think that it is more implied that a Daedric Prince can become you, than the other way around.

Maybe, but that's just semantics. It's strongly suggested that the little man with the cane was just one part of Sheogorath. Haskill was also him, and he remained constant through the entire ordeal. The Font of Madness is pretty much the heart of the Realm, and the Realm is the true Daedric Prince because the Realm is what he represents.

Exactly(sorry for the late response) how can any mortal, no matter birth, become a Plane? The only way would be to blurr the line between you for the Earthbones. Sheogorath spent the MQ grooming you. You became Ultimate Disorder by him helping you stop Ultimate Order. The line became less distinct, changed even more the longer otherrs believed you were the original.

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Nobody here is talking about Haskill to my knowledge. If that's what you were referring to. He is definitely a Daedra, possibly even an aspect of Sheogorath.

Referring to the citizens of the isles, the priests, shopkeepers, and beggars.

Hissien wrote:

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:Nobody here is talking about Haskill to my knowledge. If that's what you were referring to. He is definitely a Daedra, possibly even an aspect of Sheogorath.

Referring to the citizens of the isles, the priests, shopkeepers, and beggars.

Those people were all implied to be mortals, and still very much alive. There was a graveyard just outside of New Sheoth, and a place called the Hill of Suicides near the geographical center of the realm.

Although you do raise an interesting point. We've been told lore-wise that mortals who obey or are tricked into obeying certain Princes become their property after death. It's never stated if they're given new bodies or kept in a spirit like state in Oblivion.

Well, there's always Paradise. I feel a song coming on.....

Br3admax wrote:Well, there's always Paradise. I feel a song coming on.....

Or there was. Mankar Camoran was its Stone or Demiprince. It began collapsing into nothingness as soon as the Dragon Soul left his weak Altmer body.

Yeah, and they say Alduin was a weak final boss. His average lifespan was much longer, Alduin's was.

Br3admax wrote:Yeah, and they say Alduin was a weak final boss. His average lifespan was much longer, Alduin's was.

Hmmm well.... actually, Mankar may have been physically present on Nirn for longer than Alduin ever was, which is hilarious. From my understanding, Alduin manifested pretty early in Nirn's history, but was absent for most of the Dragon War until his underlings started dying. Then he appeared but was immediately cast forward in Time, and then died within a few weeks.

Mankar was implied to be like 500. He might actually have age and experience over the World Eater. Also, I remember dying more times during Mankar's boss fight, but he had unfair advantages such as an insane personal birthsign, his two children and the broken level scaling of Oblivion. Technically, if he DID learn how to become a Dragonborn from Xarxes, he was a Dragon too. Just in Elven form.

I guess the main difference is that Alduin's soul escaped, and Mankar is probably Dagon's personal whipping boy for eternity now.

I meant in the fight. I know all that nonsense called lore(makes sick just thinking about it, and all its plot holes). What I find intriguing is that Daedra can control a mortal's lifespan.

You're talking about the Chosen or whatever they were called? Mankar's foot soldiers? That was weird. They never aged and they could be resurrected infinite times. It's like Umaril's pact with Meridia.

On the topic of Mankar Camoran and lifespans I remember from Oblivion when talking to Tar-Meena the Argonian that runs the Library in the Arcane University and asking her about the Commentaries she tells you a little about Mankar's age.

Tar-Meena wrote:"The supposed leader of the Mythic Dawn cult. He wrote the infamous "Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes". The "Commentaries" are contemporary with Tiber Septim, over 400 years ago. So he is unlikely to be still alive, although you never know."

The way this is mentioned, he is unlikely to still be alive, generally suggests to me that 400 years is out of the "standard range" of lifespans even for a high elf. Now of course he is actually still alive but it seems he has been given favour or unnatural powers through his service to Dagon. I also distinctly remember while playing Morrowind that the Telvanni mages as has already been stated lived for over 1000 years. But this was only for the strongest and most powerful who where once again keeping themselves alive through unnatural magic or necromancy rather than just a superior lifespan from elven blood.

From what I have seen in ES games my best guess would be that Altmer would live roughly 200-240 years naturally (dependant on lifestyle). Every one that has been seen in game that was older was either a very powerful mage or was favoured by an Aedra or Daedra and therefore most likely not in their natural lifespan. As for the stories in books, some are purposely exaggerated at least that's the best I can come up with to explain the discrepancy's between the story's and in game info.

Dunmer and Altmer have similar ancestry so I imagine their natural lifespan would be similar but due to being cursed and the climate of Morrowind I'd put them at around 160 - 200 naturally.

Skyrim says no, to both of your lifespan theories.

Yeah..in Skyrim it's not uncommon for Dunmer to reference being hundreds of years old. Even one Bosmer character who remembers things from the Oblivion era looks like he's only in his forties. It's likely that Tar-Meena either wasn't aware Mankar was an Altmer or didn't know much about Elven lifespans.

That or not so good writing. We can't ignore that aspect.

Velothi wrote:That or not so good writing. We can't ignore that aspect.

Kurt Kuhlmann was the main lore and story writer for Skyrim, and considering he's one of the co authors of some of the very best TES lore including the First PGE and a large chunk of Morrowind's dialogue, I'd hardly call him a bad writer. I think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to concepts like Elven lifespans, at the very least.

I think he meant our Argonian librarian.

Br3admax wrote:I think he meant our Argonian librarian.

Oh, her.

She's just a ditz. It took her four days to read a book with like 3 pages after all. She obviously slept with the Arch Mage or has a family member on the Elder Council.

Hey, it is very hard to notice the glowing tombstone of a prince in the middle of the Imperial City.

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:

Velothi wrote:That or not so good writing. We can't ignore that aspect.

Kurt Kuhlmann was the main lore and story writer for Skyrim, and considering he's one of the co authors of some of the very best TES lore including the First PGE and a large chunk of Morrowind's dialogue, I'd hardly call him a bad writer. I think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to concepts like Elven lifespans, at the very least.

Are you sure for that story aspect? :V

I mean, we can't really continuously call plot holes just "well they just don't know!".

If that was true we could just eliminate that gigantic retcon called Oblivion and ignore the retcon that even George Martin is doing.

WHY GEORGE. WHY.

Br3admax wrote:Hey, it is very hard to notice the glowing tombstone of a prince in the middle of the Imperial City.

Yeah. I like how we're supposed to just take it on good faith that nobody ever looked into that or anything. "Hey, a map to a specific location in Cyrodill! Must be a coincidence."

Velothi wrote:

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:

Velothi wrote:That or not so good writing. We can't ignore that aspect.

Kurt Kuhlmann was the main lore and story writer for Skyrim, and considering he's one of the co authors of some of the very best TES lore including the First PGE and a large chunk of Morrowind's dialogue, I'd hardly call him a bad writer. I think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to concepts like Elven lifespans, at the very least.

Are you sure for that story aspect? :V

I mean, we can't really continuously call plot holes just "well they just don't know!".

If that was true we could just eliminate that gigantic retcon called Oblivion and ignore the retcon that even George Martin is doing.

WHY GEORGE. WHY.

There was a thread at the Bethsoft forums not long after Oblivion came out where the fans essentially "called out" the lore consultants for TES to explain what they perceived as lore inconsistencies in TES IV. Ted Peterson (user name Sheogorath) stuck around the longest IIRC. He might have been the only one who bothered to post, actually. MK contributed a lot too. Keep in mind he actually wrote for TES IV, so don't pull the "I don't believe MK's posts" card. That should only apply after Oblivion, if at all. Here's what's archived of it.

Velothi wrote:

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:

Velothi wrote:That or not so good writing. We can't ignore that aspect.

Kurt Kuhlmann was the main lore and story writer for Skyrim, and considering he's one of the co authors of some of the very best TES lore including the First PGE and a large chunk of Morrowind's dialogue, I'd hardly call him a bad writer. I think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to concepts like Elven lifespans, at the very least.

Are you sure for that story aspect? :V

I mean, we can't really continuously call plot holes just "well they just don't know!".

If that was true we could just eliminate that gigantic retcon called Oblivion and ignore the retcon that even George Martin is doing.

WHY GEORGE. WHY.

Most of it is not really retcon. A lot of it could be explained with already in game lore.

That above link I posted might not be the thread I was thinking of, but it's one instance in which Ted bothered posting. Kurt doesn't post much or often over there, but it's usually in character as Hashpat Antabolis, his long time lore persona.