Was the "ball dropped" in regards to guilds?

[Mr.Argonian]

while they were all short, I think the theives guild is the longest, followed by the DB and the Companions and CoW are way too short. Each guild should have offered more unique rewards. Special spells that are given to Colleg members, a warhorse for companion members, or something like that. But the big problem is you are given the leadership osition way too early.

[Da_BossMaN69]

I don't know about you, but I think the best way to enjoy these games are not to just think "join guild and continue forward in the MQ quest after Quest". What I made a point of doing especially in the College is to do one quest then ask around and do the side quests for each member. There are easily four or five other quests each member has you take on in the game.

[bushwhacker2k]

But the big problem is you are given the leadership osition way too early.

Yeah, it really doesn't make sense when you're promoted to leader(and no one treats you as such or gives any responsibilities befitting a leader anyway...) when you've been there for a week. Despite how skilled you are or how much you've done in such a small time-frame... you've been there for a week! In the College of Winterhold the librarian is over 635 years old! and I'm promoted to archmage after a few DAYS?

I'd honestly rather not just be given a title or position like that if I feel I haven't earned it, it just comes off the same way most achievements do, in that they're obligatory 'skinner-box' prizes awarded to people who haven't done anything to earn them just to make them feel like they'll keep earning things despite not having to try.

I don't know about you, but I think the best way to enjoy these games are not to just think "join guild and continue forward in the MQ quest after Quest". What I made a point of doing especially in the College is to do one quest then ask around and do the side quests for each member.

I actually did do that, it was still too short. I don't disagree with what you're saying but that's an excuse they use if it was 2-3 times the length it actually is, as it is they aren't fooling anyone.

There are easily four or five other quests each member has you take on in the game.

... Uh, you have to be exaggerating here. At most each person gives one quest (perhaps occasionally a few of them give a second quest afterwards), the librarian doesn't count because excepting one quest(in which you ironically do the same thing you do in his radiant quests) his quests are radiant and thus randomly-generated(we haven't advanced to the point that randomly-generating things is really acceptable a 'true' quest).

[OBLIVOWIND]

College of Winterhold

Spoiler:

Really, it was just too short. And I don't think I really earned the Arch-Mage position. More on this later.

I completely agree on the college. WAY too short. It seems like a lot of the guilds have been cut down. It seems like Morrowind had the most when it comes to factions/guilds and they're quests. You had the Great Houses, Mages Guild, Fighters Guild etc. It had more in comparison... in my view.

[KhajiitAcolyte]

I feel the same about the CoW Quest-line, I was disappointed how short it was and how

Spoiler:

you have one class and one field trip before you become Arch-Mage

[Mattbott]

does anyone else think that one factor in the duration of Oblivion guild stories compared with Skyrim (the mages and fighters quests) is that there is only 1 place to go for these quests in Skyrim, whereas in Ob you spent more time visiting the many F/M guilds and so the action seemed to go on for longer? (esp the initial chore stage of the Ob plotlines)

maybe Ob just had more padding (and maybe that's true of Mw when you throw in the less convenient 'fast travel' methods which meant more yomping)

could Skyrim's too quick questlines be cured by not using fast travel, and doing all the radiant quests given by the members of the guild? i wonder..
i will try this for the DB story and let you know lol

the thing is we love these games and will always want more

[bushwhacker2k]

does anyone else think that one factor in the duration of Oblivion guild stories compared with Skyrim (the mages and fighters quests) is that there is only 1 place to go for these quests in Skyrim, whereas in Ob you spent more time visiting the many F/M guilds and so the action seemed to go on for longer? (esp the initial chore stage of the Ob plotlines)

maybe Ob just had more padding (and maybe that's true of Mw when you throw in the less convenient 'fast travel' methods which meant more yomping)

could Skyrim's too quick questlines be cured by not using fast travel, and doing all the radiant quests given by the members of the guild? i wonder..
i will try this for the DB story and let you know lol

the thing is we love these games and will always want more

I don't disagree but even with that said these are pretty clearly short, regardless. Oblivion had more quests and it had more "meet me at this place at this time", which I've seen very little of in Skyrim excepting when people are sleeping and don't want to talk except yelling at me to leave.

[Mattbott]

yeah that happens quite a lot - told to get out and then guards arrive whilst you're trying to do the mission

reminds me of Homer asking Ned into his kitchen so he can clobber him as an intruder

[ArgonianDunmer]

I think the ball was dropped in terms of the fact that the questlines are so short. The Companions is a prime example, you do only a couple of quests before you are thrown right into the thick of a storyline which isn't really one that focuses on Warriors, but instead focuses on the Circle.

The Thieves Guild is a very satisfying Guild at first, you do actually do normal work for a time and get the feeling of being in a Guild as you did in Morrowind and Oblivion. The DB is similar, maybe to a lesser extent. The College is probably closer to the Companions in that regard, although not as severely, and it does provide a number of side favour quests that are actually enjoyable, as opposed to the somewhat lacklustre ones the Companions offer.

[Gideon Dragontongue]

Yeah, I'd say that sums it up exactly.

[The Number None]

Too short, to poorly written, the characters aren't really memorable, no sense of belonging. Each guild seems to have one really big problem which you fix and in reward you become guildmaster. I didn't get the feeling of working my way up from the bottom. I wanna be promoted and stuff.

[bushwhacker2k]

Too short, to poorly written, the characters aren't really memorable, no sense of belonging. Each guild seems to have one really big problem which you fix and in reward you become guildmaster. I didn't get the feeling of working my way up from the bottom. I wanna be promoted and stuff.

Yeah, I remember being promoted in Morrowind felt really significant, because I had to work for each step up. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, in Skyrim there are exactly two ranks in each guild, member and guild-leader.

Well I finished the Dark Brotherhood, it ended up also feeling pretty rushed. Honestly the twist didn't really make sense to me, I'm not saying it's absolutely unbelievable but I don't really buy it. The last assassination was pretty interesting and the mark itself seemed like he could have been a pretty intriguing character but ultimately despite showing potential to be a really deep character it ended up being the same as your other missions, you found the place, made your way through and just finished him. In the end, even though it's a HUGE FREAKING DEAL it ends up not really affecting anything! The Dark Brotherhood from Oblivion was much more memorable and deep...

I dunno, maybe I'm just ranting now but it's pretty clear that the ball was indeed dropped in regards to guilds.

[ArgonianDunmer]

Yeah I wish being promoted to the head of a guild felt like it meant more. I don't know, it didn't feel that fantastic with the Companions, although it was better for the DB.

Spoiler:

I like having a totally new sanctuary for your leadership actually, it really feels like rebirth.

[bushwhacker2k]

Yeah I wish being promoted to the head of a guild felt like it meant more. I don't know, it didn't feel that fantastic with the Companions, although it was better for the DB.

Spoiler:

I like having a totally new sanctuary for your leadership actually, it really feels like rebirth.

It certainly helps that your leadership actually makes any difference at all.

Spoiler:

The one person in Tamriel who can speak to the Night Mother, and you get a spiffy new hideout, though unless I'm mistaken it never really goes past that.

[ArgonianDunmer]

Yeah that is true,

Spoiler:

you really fell like a Listener as opposed to the guy who became the Listener as a title. But you don't really get to partake in rebuilding the DB all that much, which mght have made the role for me.

[unokitsune]

Yeah that is true,

Spoiler:

you really fell like a Listener as opposed to the guy who became the Listener as a title. But you don't really get to partake in rebuilding the DB all that much, which mght have made the role for me.

I was really hoping to rebuild the system, make the survivors speakers and then get your own personal silencer and reinstate the structure found in Oblivion, yet that wasn't an option

[ArgonianDunmer]

That would have made the guild worth completing, it would have been simply epic really!

[unokitsune]

The end of the Dark Brotherhood I felt like the Listener/Speaker/Silencer/Murderer I honestly felt I was doing lowly jobs meant for dark brotherhood Initiates. At least in Oblivion you could tell your speaker about the contracts needed.

It just didn't make sense to me. Plus there is the fact the Nightmother still lacks a crypt, why couldn't we get a quest to go make/find her one so ti give Cicero a break and allows him to murder again. Lore wise he's not supposed to murder ever again because he is the NIght Mother's Keeper. And where did Keeper come from anyway? The night mother always had a crypt in Bravil and she was a skeleton/ghost in Oblivion, how did she become a mummy?!

[bushwhacker2k]

The end of the Dark Brotherhood I felt like the Listener/Speaker/Silencer/Murderer I honestly felt I was doing lowly jobs meant for dark brotherhood Initiates. At least in Oblivion you could tell your speaker about the contracts needed.

I totally agree, I don't mind the radiant quests for some added stuff to do but they're just too basic. If they had added 2-3 more levels of complexity/depth to the radiant quests, like further conditions or situations that actually come off as unique because there are so many variables being taken into account that it gives a vastly different quest each time... though on hindsight I don't think anyone has ever succeeded at this, in any field even outside of games, ever. I don't think it'd be that hard to make things not incredibly basic though.

Basically sums up the radiant quests for every guild. Why am I taking lowly contracts to steal, find books, assassinate nobodies and strongarm nobodies from people way beneath me in the guild ranking?

[unokitsune]

I know it's like you come in, repair and rebuild the guild, strengthen it and everyone else rides your tail so to speak, don't help and you don't get much of a reward for it. If it's a case of money, you get more through potion making and enchanting.

Honestly it's more of a challenge gathering ingredients to make potions and gathering souls for enchanting than it is end-guild.

They did a good job in Shivering Isles, in a sense you did more like defend a village and what not. The radiant quest would be better had they added more variables.

[OblivionDuruza]

I have to agree with this, as I think I've mentioned before, Factions should include menial, mundane, everyday work before the PC gets thrown into the drama of a story, just to get a feel for the organisation, meet characters and so that the story writers can utilise techniques like foreshadowing to develop the narrative. They could consist of three stages, the initial 'work' (or beginning - if we are to look at it in terms of narrative structure), through which the player rises through the guild, initially through jobs, then through story; the introduction of the complication and final climax, after which point the PC resolves the issue and may become head of the faction; and then a period of scripted quests that follow the post-calamity, rebuilding of the faction, and allows the PC to use their new found power to shape the faction, if they chose to accept the leadership of the faction instead of giving it to another and taking an honorary role, similar to a 'Champion'. All these scripted quests should be complemented by Radiant ones, but Radiant quests should never take the front seat.

[Dark Spark]

... Lore wise he's not supposed to murder ever again because he is the NIght Mother's Keeper. And where did Keeper come from anyway? The night mother always had a crypt in Bravil and she was a skeleton/ghost in Oblivion, how did she become a mummy?!

...It is a new year, and two months since the Night Mother first arrived here at the Cheydinhal Sanctuary, and still the Unholy Matron has not seen fit to speak to any one of us.

And so, Rasha has decided to revive an ancient Dark Brotherhood tradition- the appointing of a Keeper, a guardian whose sole duty is the safeguarding of the Night Mother's remains. The remaining members of the Black Hand will make their decision tomorrow.

A Keeper is needed when everyone (other than you, of course) literally goes to Hell in a handbasket— the murder of the Listener and the loss of the Bravil haven called for an emergency measure.

Thing is, you settle the Dark Brotherhood questline when you cement your position as the new Listener. Perhaps this is why your Spectral Assassin thinks it's wiser to let Cicero live— so you can unleash him from the duties as Keeper and allow him to wet his blade once more.

[CreeperX]

Too short, to poorly written, the characters aren't really memorable, no sense of belonging. Each guild seems to have one really big problem which you fix and in reward you become guildmaster. I didn't get the feeling of working my way up from the bottom. I wanna be promoted and stuff.

This. At the end of the college questline they went like "Darn, we need a new arch-mage. You be the one. Cheers!"
I was like "wait wut?" I didn't feel like I had worked my way up to earn that position. Yeah, getting the staff of Magnus (I loved that quest) was no small feat but does that kind of work actually make me a good leader? While I really have no knowledge of the College and how it works? I just randomly jumped from a novice to arch-mage... and when I became an arch-mage, it didn't really make much difference. It felt too sudden and unsatisfying. Same with the Dark Brotherhood. I didn't feel like I was at the top of the food chain: a mighty Listener.

There really should be different ranks in the guilds. You should need to work hard to earn your promotions and not get stuff like "Hi you just started today but you're the ONE so be our leader now lol."
Also, I loved how in Oblivion your development affected those around you. In Fighter's Guild it was interesting to see how Modryn's opinion of you changed when you climbed your way up in the ranks. At first he was like "U noob!", then he was like "You're ok!" and in the end he's like your best friend, though still being sarcastic XD. That kind of development is absent in Skyrim.
I also have to say that they should lay down the cliches. Once again talking about the College questline

Spoiler:

Who did NOT see Ancano being the bad guy? I bet everyone immediately knew the deal with him. The guy's face practically screams "I'm a villain, dur hur!" They could have done much better work with his character. Like make him explain his views on different things, make the player question which side is right.... that sort of thing. Now it was like "Oh Ancano is up to something? Big suprise... NOT!" There also wasn't enough development for the arch-mage who most of the time felt invisible... and then I had to take his place. There was no big feelings involved at all when I replaced him, nor did any of the characters make me think about what I was doing.

So yeah, while I did enjoy the guilds (especially Thieves Guild) they still were a disappointment and to me actually felt worse than in Oblivion. I guess it's because I was hoping too much and expected them to remarkably improve the guild system in Skyrim.

[bushwhacker2k]

Spoiler:

Who did NOT see Ancano being the bad guy? I bet everyone immediately knew the deal with him. The guy's face practically screams "I'm a villain, dur hur!" They could have done much better work with his character. Like make him explain his views on different things, make the player question which side is right.... that sort of thing. Now it was like "Oh Ancano is up to something? Big suprise... NOT!" There also wasn't enough development for the arch-mage who most of the time felt invisible... and then I had to take his place. There was no big feelings involved at all when I replaced him, nor did any of the characters make me think about what I was doing.

That's really a problem the Thalmor as a whole have, you're never allowed to agree, sympathize with or support them and you aren't really given much reason to. More work was needed in certain areas of the game, not sure I can add much more.

[OblivionDuruza]

Yeah the fact that you have to work against them, angering them so much that they put a mark out on your name, for the Main Quest solidifies their role as the 'enemy' or 'villain' in the game, even when they aren't an 'evil' faction, per se. It's a bit limiting, for an RPG of the stature of The Elder Scrolls.