Who is Talos?

[Wolfie]

How do you "rank" the Gods? by power? followers? deeds? order of apearnce?
Somethign to think about

[OblivionDuruza]

By what they are in actuality. The Greater Saints are 'Greater' because of what they achieved, Veloth is like the father of the Chimeri/Dunmeri people, Nerevar brought them through the bitter War of the First Council. For that reason, they are Greater Saints. Alessia liberated her people, and founded the first Empire of men, Tiber Septim, was a man, and as such not a God but more akin to a Saint, he was undoubtedly a 'Greater' Saint, he did achieve a great deal, however, you have to question, what made him more special than any other General, than say, Titus Mede? The Underking and the Underking's power, that's what, so why does Tiber get all the credit?

[Wolfie]

By what they are in actuality. The Greater Saints are 'Greater' because of what they achieved, Veloth is like the father of the Chimeri/Dunmeri people, Nerevar brought them through the bitter War of the First Council. For that reason, they are Greater Saints. Alessia liberated her people, and founded the first Empire of men, Tiber Septim, was a man, and as such not a God but more akin to a Saint, he was undoubtedly a 'Greater' Saint, he did achieve a great deal, however, you have to question, what made him more special than any other General, than say, Titus Mede? The Underking and the Underking's power, that's what, so why does Tiber get all the credit?

Becuse the Gray beards them self saw somethign in him?
becuse what he did was to my knodlage far more impresive then any one eles?

becuse he lead one of the most imporant familys in the EMpire\Akatosh historoy?

I'll be honest I really dont know, to me a God is who ever is worshiped by something, of couse that dont work when there is mutiple God's who are proven to be real.

[OblivionDuruza]

That's all true, and I don't want it to seem that I don't acknowledge those things, because Tiber Septim was a great man in my eyes, no doubt about it. He was a hero, and although I might not have liked all his practices in war, he was a great General. Maybe he had the power of The Voice, maybe not (there are conflicting stories - I try to believe somewhere in the middle), but as Ulfric puts it, any Nord can learn to wield The Voice, maybe Tiber was the best of the best, but does this make him any better than a really powerful magician like Lord Fyr? He's deserving of worship, no question there, but as an equal to Akatosh, from whom the Septims drew much of their power? I don't know

[Biggsydaboss]

Kill one man you're a murderer
Kill a thousand you're a king
Kill a million you're a god

I wasn't debating where the tribunal got their power, just that it wasn't really god like power they had. On the otherhand Talos has god like power

[Wolfie]

I think we both agree that we dont know, but like I said, i think he may belong in the 8-9
but as a lesser one of them and not on level of Akatosh

[OblivionDuruza]

I'd like to know more about Arkay too, because if we believe The Monomyth, then I can see why he is a Divine, being the 'son' of Akatosh and all, but if he were really just a simple Shopkeeper, then his place would also be in question.

As for the Tribunal, how does their power differ from Talos'? They can perform equally extraordinary miracles, not only do they provide blessings as the Divines, and Talos, do, but it is rumoured that Vivec could change form like the Daedra, and that he flooded Morrowind and taught the Dunmer to breathe water for a short period of time. Their power can be accuratley measured when we look at the way they drove Mehrunes Dagon back to Oblivion, a feat Akatosh, but not many others, can boast about. We also know that Vivec was responsible for stopping Baar Dau from plummeting into Vvardenfell, no small feat either, and the Tribunal did all this without the aid of the Underking and other powerful Mages.

[Biggsydaboss]

Oblivion duruza. Like I said previously the power they wielded was no more then what a master wizard could. Case & example, the Nerevarine kicked Vivec's backside & Almalexia's that doesn't sound god like to me, though the Vivec bit is just in my Lore, but Almalexia backside kicking is proper Elder Scrolls lore. I doubt he could go up against Talos & hope to win. Maybe Vivec flooded Morrowind, but the breathing water bit, every Elder Scrolls character I had could do that & if the game engine had allowed he could shown that skill to a lot of people. Also a lot of Vivec's so called accomplishments were embellished & some were out right lies, Elder Scrolls lore.
I just thought of something Tiber Septim & Vivec met & Vivec backed down from a confrontation, well he basically surrendered. That was before Tiver Septim went through apotheosis. If Vivec backed down to the man, how could you compare the two when Tiber became Talos the god. Ooo that's a good one.

[Narzul]

Oblivion duruza. Like I said previously the power they wielded was no more then what a master wizard could. Case & example, the Nerevarine kicked Vivec's backside & Almalexia's that doesn't sound god like to me, though the Vivec bit is just in my Lore, but Almalexia backside kicking is proper Elder Scrolls lore. I doubt he could go up against Talos & hope to win. Maybe Vivec flooded Morrowind, but the breathing water bit, every Elder Scrolls character I had could do that & if the game engine had allowed he could shown that skill to a lot of people. Also a lot of Vivec's so called accomplishments were embellished & some were out right lies, Elder Scrolls lore.
I just thought of something Tiber Septim & Vivec met & Vivec backed down from a confrontation, well he basically surrendered. That was before Tiver Septim went through apotheosis. If Vivec backed down to the man, how could you compare the two when Tiber became Talos the god. Ooo that's a good one.

When the Nerevarine faced down Almalexia, she wasn't a god any more. That's what the whole Tribunal questline is about... her loss of godhood. And Vivec backed down for the sake of his people. He claims he foresaw the meteoric rise of Talos of Atmora to heavenly and earthly prominence, but Vivec isn't a very reliable source himself.

Speaking of Vivec's power, one should actually turn to Dagoth Ur's in-game strength, as he wielded the full power of the Heart, not the Tribunal at that point. And Dagoth Ur is impossible to legitimately slay in single combat, as far as I know.

[Wolfie]

Speaking of Vivec's power, one should actually turn to Dagoth Ur's in-game strength, as he wielded the full power of the Heart, not the Tribunal at that point. And Dagoth Ur is impossible to legitimately slay in single combat, as far as I know.

There is a gltich but its just an oversight, if you enough dmange he will "die" but it dreaks the game.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

How do you "rank" the Gods? by power? followers? deeds? order of apearnce?
Somethign to think about

Here's MK's list for what it's worth:

On the "most powerful" being:

Talos.

The HoonDing.

Trinimac.

Vivec.

Leki.

Reman.

Auri-El.

Wulfharth.

Morihaus.

Pelinal.

That's my list, and pretty much in that order. Though Vivec did kill Tiber Septim once...but I mentioned Talos, not the Emperor.


^ That's not a fully canon list per se, but Michael would know more about it than even the most dedicated fan. Note that different Shezarrines are lower down the list than Talos, and they appear to get stronger as time moves forward. Talos is the newest and strongest Divine, which is why even suppressing his worship could not drain his blessings.

[Biggsydaboss]

A good list, though some think Pelinal & Wulfharth are the same.
It's interesting how deep Bethesda has made the lore around the Elder Scrolls, that we can have these types of debates. Is Talos a god or not. I certainly imagine he has the power of a god. Maybe even coming third to, what I believe are the two most powerful divines Akatosh & Stendar. Is he the Shezzarine, I suppose in some ways he fills the gap that Shezzar left, a deity for the races of men. If Vivec was a god, he certainly paid Tiber Septim a lot of respect, that in itself suggests Tiber was a man of considerable influence & power.
I think the main question I'd ask anyone who doubts Talos' godhood, is. Do you think he ascended & became the ninth divine, or do you think something else happened & if so do you have any sources to suggest that's the case?

[Incarnal]

The thing is, we actually know that Talos became an Aedra because his blood works in Oblivion. If his blood hadn't worked, then that would have meant that Talos' "duties" as an Aedra were being performed by something else, but it did work so he's a god.

Now, the really tricky part is if there is more than one Talos. There is a point where his behavior completely changes, and it allows for the possibility for him to have been more than one person, but we know that whoever it was that wore the armor of Talos was definitely the one who became the 9th Divine.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

A good list, though some think Pelinal & Wulfharth are the same.
It's interesting how deep Bethesda has made the lore around the Elder Scrolls, that we can have these types of debates. Is Talos a god or not. I certainly imagine he has the power of a god. Maybe even coming third to, what I believe are the two most powerful divines Akatosh & Stendar. Is he the Shezzarine, I suppose in some ways he fills the gap that Shezzar left, a deity for the races of men. If Vivec was a god, he certainly paid Tiber Septim a lot of respect, that in itself suggests Tiber was a man of considerable influence & power.

Technically, Pelinal and Wulfharth are both Shezarr/Shor/Lorkhan, but Wulfharth is a slightly stronger and more vital manifestation. Ever seen or read Watchmen? It's like when Dr. Manhattan first rebuilt his body after the scientist he used to be was dissolved. At first he could only manifest a skeleton or nervous system, but gradually could access more power and physical presence. That's what Lorkhan has been going through for the last 7000 years or so.

As for Vivec's respect for Tiber, it was immense. Some of MK's old forum posts from when he was still a dev strongly hint at his love for Tiber. He considered him "a master" and would have long intellectual conversations with him.

Not all of Vehk's teachings made it into the Sermons and Morrowind's dialogue. A lot of the unused ideas are preserved here. Be sure to follow the links at the bottom to the other parts. Just hit "up" to get a list of "Vehk's Teachings". He speaks both of his love for Tiber and the time he killed the Emperor.

I think the main question I'd ask anyone who doubts Talos' godhood, is. Do you think he ascended & became the ninth divine, or do you think something else happened & if so do you have any sources to suggest that's the case?

He officially became the Ninth Divine and sits at the highest level, besides Akatosh. That's the simplified propaganda version though. What most people forget is that Akatosh is basically Alduin/Auriel/Sep with his chest torn open and Lorkhan's heart sewn in. Talos replaces the missing god Shezarr. He's basically the whole guy, not a piece of a god hidden inside another god to feed off it like a leech. According to some Thalmor transmissions circa the First PGE "Talos is still on the ascent", meaning he could possibly someday or already managed to fully become Lorkhan.

I don't think that's happened yet, though. There's a huge event called the Landfall that some dev posts seem to hint at that would herald his physical return, and that's not a reference to anything that's happened yet. Some thought the meteor hitting Vivec City was it, but that's a lesser and more limited event. Again, a lot of this is wild ideas some of the devs - especially MK, who isn't a full time employee but still a contract writer - mention often. It may or may not be an idea actually used in a game...but... a lot of those ideas were used in Skyrim (kalpas, painted cows, Talos changing the climate of Cyrodill with his Thu'um, etc.)

[Biggsydaboss]

Incarnal you're absolutely right, not only does his blood work in the quest to open a portal to Cameron's paradise, but the Talos blessing works in the knights of the nine, allowing to kill Umaril in the Oblivion dimension he escaped to after his battle with Pelinal Whitestrake. As for your second point, not only does ES lore suggest that Pelinal & Wulfharth are the same person or bodies that have the same soul, but the body which we know as Tibet Septim/Talos also has the same soul. Maybe even the soul of Shezzar.

Pilaf the Difiler. If Talos is on the rise to become Lorkan & assuming that Akatosh would've known this (which I believe is a safe assumption). Why would Akatosh help him, by allowing or even creating the apotheosis Tiber went through? This is of course assuming that Lorkan was the great trickster. That basically took away the immortality of some of the gods, through the creation of Nirn.

[Narzul]

What most people forget is that Akatosh is basically Alduin/Auriel/Sep with his chest torn open and Lorkhan's heart sewn in.

Skyrim main quest spoilers ahead.

Spoiler:

Alduin claims to be the "first-born of Akatosh", which implies several things, such as the dragons being Akatosh's children. But most importantly, Alduin and Akatosh are not one and the same.

[Biggsydaboss]

Incarnal. I think the statement Alduin made might've have been figurative, not littoral. If what Pilaf is saying is true. There are many magics at work on Nirn, in Atherius & Oblivion. Maybe Alduin isn't aware if the Akatosh element of himself. Similar to a split personality, he's obviously aware of Akatosh as a divine & felt some connection so his mind filled in the blanks. Of course what I'm saying is heavy conjecture & working on a premise I have no evidence for. Your reasoning seems sound Alduin was pretty sure of his lineage.

[OblivionDuruza]

Biggsydaboss, my point is, how is the Tribunal's power less than Tiber Spetim's.

Tiber was a skilled practitioner of the voice by some accounts (others claim it was the Underking's power entirely - both attribute some power to the Underking, although in different forms), however, he was far from the only practitioner of the voice, even Ulfric Stormcloak points out that any Nord willing to learn my do so.

So Talos gives out blessings, so do the entire complement of Saints, even the lesser ones like Olms and Roris. The Tribunal do too.

@Pilaf, I've actually seen that list before but I've never understood by Kirkbride lists Auri-El so lowly. He is the Aldmeri Akatosh after all. One thing to note however, is that Talos most probably derives his power from not only Shezarr, but also Akatosh, that is, in a similar manner to Alessia through the Amulet of Kings.

[Biggsydaboss]

The problem is without further action on the part of Talos we can not see the extent of his power. We've seen the extent of Vivec's power, which wasn't particularly immense. If we had a way we could see Talos in full glory then we'd know.

[OblivionDuruza]

I beg to differ. Preventing the destruction of Vvardenfell by stopping the fall of Baar Dau is pretty immense in my opinion.

[Narzul]

No mortal sorcerer could have fueled the Ghostfence, held Baar Dau aloft despite the immense kinetic energy attempting to drive it forward and have power to spare for blessings through remote shrines to pilgrims at the same time. As a matter of fact, I've never even heard of a non-God being able to give blessings like that at all.

[Biggsydaboss]

Yes those feats were impressive, btw it took three of them to keep the ghost fence going. It wasn't just Vivec by himself. Talos or any other god could've done this with a blink of an eye. I'm sure even Vivec conceded that he was a pretender & not a real god & the tribunal was a mistake.

[Biggsydaboss]

Vivec isn't an immortal. The tribunal weren't even as strong as Dagoth Ur & he wasn't a god. They just robbed a god of power.

[Narzul]

They weren't as powerful as Dagoth because he worked with the heart's natural evil, not against it. And Vivec was keeping the Ghostfence up by himself during TES:III... even with his power reduced severely from not being able to access the Heart on a yearly basis.

Besides, they banished Mehrunes' Dagon's ass back to Oblivion pretty much the same way Akatosh did. They took a God's divine spark for themselves, assimilated it into their being -- how does that not make them Gods too?

[Biggsydaboss]

Well Vivec's admition that he wasn't a god for one thing. There is no way I'll concede that the tribunal were gods, especially when there are so many people who find it hard to except Talos as a god