Thalmor vs Talos Worshippers

[JVElEven]

Can we agree that every single person on Tamriel is a giant hypocrite and be over with it?

Seriously, I think Tamriel's Empire is meant to break apart and reform every one thousand years or so. That appears to have happened a lot.

[OblivionDuruza]

Yeah, nobody's perfect Just as long as people get the whole picture.

[JVElEven]

The only people that appear to never be said much bad about is the Natives of High Rock and, to a lesser extent, Hammerfell.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well we can change that . But High Rock is mainly Manmer territory, and we all know the Manmer are totally corrupt. Simply look at Wayrest

But on the topic of Tiber, why does he, a man who was effectively made by the Underking, deserve godship when Alessia, Pelinal Whitestrake and Morihaus do not? What makes him more important then them?

[Puggles]

It's pretty clear that the nature of divinity in Tamriel is pretty fluid concept in Tamriel. Whether Talos ought to be worshiped as a God is for me, a moot question. An outside party has enforced its beliefs on the inhabitants of Skyrim and this has lead to justifiable resentment.

[Chaos the N'wah]

But on the topic of Tiber, why does he, a man who was effectively made by the Underking, deserve godship when Alessia, Pelinal Whitestrake and Morihaus do not? What makes him more important then them?

Sexism, Racism (Nordic-God-Hero), and Pelinal was death incarnate sweeping across the lands like a plague

[OblivionDuruza]

Touché. But my point is more of a rhetorical one. There is at least some validity in the Thalmor's contention that Talos was a man and not a god, no more than a mere mortal.

Which brings me back to the Conquistador's parallel, mortals are not gods, gods are symbolic entities forged in human conciousness. The Thalmor are not completely wrong in not seeing Tiber as a god, because he is not.

As for forcing religious and theological beliefs upon others, every Empire that has come before has done so (in Tamriel), the Nordic allies of Alessia didn't want the gods of the Mer to be worshipped. The Septims spread the Nine and frowned upon Daedra worship. Etc.

[Frost Mage]

So it comes down to this guys, I'm at the point where I need to decide which group to side with. Stormcloaks or the Empire?

[Wolfie]

Depends do you think the nords have a right ot leave or ot?

[Frost Mage]

Absolutely not. I love the Thalmor, but that means siding with the Legion, who's motives are what? Sorry, I haven't really been listening or partaking in this conversation .

[Wolfie]

The empire dont really serve the Thalmor, the Thalmor and the empire are not teamed up

[Frost Mage]

Yes, but the Imperials freely accept and are business partners with them?

[OblivionDuruza]

One factor, is that the Imperial Jarls are miles ahead of the Stormcloak Jarls in terms of their characters. But if you like lazy, weak, ignorant and corrupt Jarls, the Stormcloak ones will do just fine.

Another factor is that the Empire are 'spineless' and in the grips of the Thalmor. Or that the Empire is biding it's time to strike out against the Thalmor.

A further point to consider is that the Stormcloaks hate all Elves and will chase them from Skyrim/free Skyrim from them

An additional point is that the Stormcloaks protect Talos worship.

The Thalmor want to prolong the war, but they also want to avoid a Stormcloak victory.

Some fairly impartial points, except the first (although it's true ) for you to weigh up. It really comes down to, are you a Nord or aren't you though. The Stormcloaks might be the right thing for Skyrim and for some of the most fascist/nationalist Nords, they might not be for outsiders.

[Wolfie]

They did not freely acept and they are enemys, they just act nice waiting to stab eachother in the back

thye dont work together and hide stuff form one another

[Frost Mage]

A further point to consider is that the Stormcloaks hate all Elves and will chase them from Skyrim/free Skyrim from them

Nuff said. Brofist.

[Chaos the N'wah]

On the gods: You're talking philosophy Duru, we full well know that many have ascended to god-like status for lesser deeds or crimes (Say hello to Malacath and Arkay).
And we know Aedra and Daedra alike are very well real in this world with the races being distant relatives to them by way of Ehlnofey.

What the Thalmor are doing is the ancient creed of "History is written by the victor", they see the most obvious symbol of Man's strength and pride, a ripe target to mar in order to demoralize the Empire and their allies. Forging a wedge between the Empire trying to enforce the Concordant to buy time, building strength to fight back and the nations in their care who see the accepting of the terms as a betrayal.

The Thalmor did it to prove their supremacy, not because it actually offended them.

[OblivionDuruza]

I;d argue that it does offend them, seeing as Talos is the reincarnation of Lorkhan, the greatest enemy of the Mer, who their two greatest heroes/gods were supposed to have slain; but I wont deny it's about supremacy and instigating conflict amongst the Men races. It worked didn't it?

[WRXpilot]

Another factor is that the Empire are 'spineless' and in the grips of the Thalmor. Or that the Empire is biding it's time to strike out against the Thalmor.

Probably both true. But assuming the Thalmor aren't idiots (and after basically conquering the Empire, who could say they are?), they MUST be aware of the second point. Why else would Thalmor justicars be embedded w/ the Imperial legion all over the place, but to make sure the empire doesn't decide to "rise up" against the Aldmeri Dominion again (or at least to provide intel when it does happen)?

A further point to consider is that the Stormcloaks hate all Elves and will chase them from Skyrim/free Skyrim from them

Eh, thank the Aldmeri Dominion for that. Humans have quite a lot to fear from the Mer at this point in time. The only organized Mer government (ie Thalmor) is actively pursuing a campaign to conquer humanity, subvert its religion, and re-establish elven superiority. It's hardly unreasonable that this would cause a lot of "intolerance" towards elves among humans.

Some fairly impartial points, except the first (although it's true ) for you to weigh up. It really comes down to, are you a Nord or aren't you though. The Stormcloaks might be the right thing for Skyrim and for some of the most fascist/nationalist Nords, they might not be for outsiders.

It's really nice that this part of the story is so grey. There's ample reason to pick either side (although if you're a Nord/Altmer, the choice becomes much more clear) depending on how you're RPing your toon.

[enyamerT]

Eh, thank the Aldmeri Dominion for that. Humans have quite a lot to fear from the Mer at this point in time. The only organized Mer government (ie Thalmor) is actively pursuing a campaign to conquer humanity, subvert its religion, and re-establish elven superiority. It's hardly unreasonable that this would cause a lot of "intolerance" towards elves among humans.

Well, Nordic hatred of Elves goes back thousands of years. The Falmer deciding to obliterate Sarthaal and exterminate the ancient Nord settlers left a bad (and lasting) first impression.

[Chaos the N'wah]

I;d argue that it does offend them, seeing as Talos is the reincarnation of Lorkhan, the greatest enemy of the Mer, who their two greatest heroes/gods were supposed to have slain; but I wont deny it's about supremacy and instigating conflict amongst the Men races. It worked didn't it?

I haven't found anything to indicate the Thalmor has any religious ties and Lorkhan is mostly forgotten at this point in time. What offended them was Talos' connection to Man's pride, not out of spite, but out of tactical demoralization. The Thalmor have made it clear that they have no qualms about taking credit for supernatural acts (See the reappearing moons) without concern of the mockery in doing so.

[OblivionDuruza]

Well there is no evidence that the Thalmor were not responsible, just as there is none that they were. The Khajiiti people seemed to believe the Thalmor though.

As for Talos, the Elves have never liked the idea of Talos being a god. I agree that it's a primarily strategic manoeuvre, but I wouldn't write it off as not religious at all, at least for some Altmer. Maybe not to the head honchos in the Thalmor, but to the footsoldiers, maybe so.

[Iain]

If one takes into account the line said by Gen. Tullius, regarding his confidence in the "peace with the Thalmor" it does lend to the Tamriel Empire recuperating in secret after the war and not giving themselves away to the elven oppressors.

One other thing is that the Thalmor assassinated the chancellor, Ocato after he became potenate, so there is anti-Thalmor sentiment among the Altmer, as confirmed by in-game literature.

It is my opinion that the Dovahkiin may follow the path of Talos and reunite the provinces under the same banner and drive out any oppression, for history repeats itself, as we can attest to even in real life.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Eh, thank the Aldmeri Dominion for that. Humans have quite a lot to fear from the Mer at this point in time. The only organized Mer government (ie Thalmor) is actively pursuing a campaign to conquer humanity, subvert its religion, and re-establish elven superiority. It's hardly unreasonable that this would cause a lot of "intolerance" towards elves among humans.

Well, Nordic hatred of Elves goes back thousands of years. The Falmer deciding to obliterate Sarthaal and exterminate the ancient Nord settlers left a bad (and lasting) first impression.

This actually wasn't even humanity's first impression of Elves. When Ysgramor's group of Nedes arrived from Atmora there had been earlier groups living in Tamriel for some time.

The ones that hadn't been driven out of their homes or killed and eaten by Elves were enslaved by them. The Ayleids kept many human and beastfolk slaves, and Clan Direnni in Balferia, known as modern day High Rock, enslaved and interbred with the mannish race we call Bretons now. They were already a distinct race at the time Harald's forces began their westward push in their war against Elvenkind.