If the Empire was forced to disband who would takeover?

[dajackal07]

Wow. You guys have been busy. Or was I offline for ages?

I think fire'd be an easier way to destroy the place, magically induced, one proper fireball would take out a single tree, maybe more if they're close. But it wouldn't do the whole place in one go seeing as it's so damp...
So with enough mages, preferrably Breton or Altmer, you could take care of the trees quick, and water walking should work on a bog, the land is basically puddles and muddy err... mud. But as long as there was, say 10%, water in the ground, water walking should work, right?

while the mages walk above the water argonians could easily swim under them undetected and pull them under easy slit thier throat then move on not too hard and you know that that would make a great part in a movie

[The Dog Whisperer]

But you can't sneak underwater... so they'd easily be seen coming.

[Teinaava]

But you can't sneak underwater... so they'd easily be seen coming.

Just because in the game you can't sneak underwater, doesn't mean you can't hide in the water without being seen. The water in Argonia is probably very murky, and so I doubt your troops would be able to see a anyone hiding few feet below the surface.

[Kinzer]

Plus, there must be things like Slaughter Fish and other creatures in the waters of Black Marsh. I doubt the Argonians could just sneak underwater without being attacked.

[Teinaava]

Plus, there must be things like Slaughter Fish and other creatures in the waters of Black Marsh. I doubt the Argonians could just sneak underwater without being attacked.

If the Argonians got attacked by creatures (Voriplasms and Swamp Leviathans) then the troops using water walking would also get attacked. Also, these could probably be seen coming and if they were the Argonians could just slip away, and leave your troops to be attacked.

[dajackal07]

also another thing i just thought of (now correct me if im wrong) dont argonians lay eggs so wouldn't building up an army be alot easier as once the egg is laid they can move them to a training ground or sumthing like that thus easier as you both male and female would be in the shadowscales so theres like no pregant woman trying to kil people.


am i rite cuz i kina just confused myself........

[Teinaava]

There's no solid evidence of how they reproduce. They may lay eggs, or may give live birth.

[The Dog Whisperer]

Aren't we doing this the "Oblivion way"?
We were earlier.

Also, these could probably be seen coming and if they were the Argonians could just slip away, and leave your troops to be attacked.

Who says the Argonians could just slip away? You said yourself the water is murky...

[Teinaava]

Aren't we doing this the "Oblivion way"?
We were earlier.

If we do eveything the Oblivion way, then you would never have to sleep you could jsut eat apples. Also, you could shoot someone in the head with an arrow and they would still be able to fight.

Also, these could probably be seen coming and if they were the Argonians could just slip away, and leave your troops to be attacked.

Who says the Argonians could just slip away? You said yourself the water is murky...

If a voriplasm or Swamp Leviathan started coming your troops would probably see it and react to it. Which the Argonians would notice. Then while your troops are distracted, they could just slip away. Although the water may be murkey, Argonians can probably see better in water than the other races. They could also just remember the direction they entered they water from and just go back that way until they came to the shore.

[Wolf]

Ok... I'm sick right now so I'm going to void all pretentious forms of thought and speech and say this out loud because it's really bugging me. Teinaava, you are trying to take down entire armies with loosely based, biased, and frankly pointless, little tiny diversions that are distracting entire trains of thought by centering on what wans't said, but is common sense to ASSUME that you are taking advantage of. It's called selective exploitation. I'm pretty sure Argonians couldn't make everything they would need on their own because it has been statistiaclly proven that NO COUNTRY CAN BE COMPLETELY AND WHOLLY SELF-SUFFICIENT. THIS IS THE WHOLE REASON THAT THE UN EXISTS ON TERRA-FIRMA, THEIR DUTY IS TO CUT OFF TRADE FROM COUNTRIES DOING THINGS THAT THEY DON'T APPROVE OF AND I DON'T THINK THEY WOULD SPEND YEARS OF DELIBERATION AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON SOMETHING THAT ISN'T NECESSARY. Now that I've made my point that Argonia will definitely need trading to survive I can move on.

I really honestly don't think that the swamp would be a problem, one or two days march, especially from the coast, won't mean the destruction of an entire army. The Alliance would be well aware of the shadowscales and would take whatever precaution needed to prevent or derail any attacks. Bretons and Redguards have espionage, too. It's called the Dark Brotherhood... That's all for now, my mind is foggy and my eyes are watering so it's kinda hard to think (and really hard to be nice ). If anyone finds this information inflaming and offensive I will be happy to edit and formally apologize for anything said.

[The King]

From unbiased view, I don't care for any race except I hate orcs, argonains would lose against almost anyone, no weapons,armor, potions, how can you win without that.

[Teinaava]

From unbiased view, I don't care for any race except I hate orcs, argonains would lose against almost anyone, no weapons,armor, potions, how can you win without that.

Who says they don't have weapons and armor? They have a military as well as they Shadowscales, which are armed and armored. Also, they do have potions. They can make them from native plants in Black Marsh.

[The King]

Then whats the military doing? Have they been letting their people be enslaved? Not the most efficient army.

[Teinaava]

They may not have been fighting back because they didn't want to get into a full-scale war. Also, some tribes of Argonians (namely the Archeins) would sell others into slavery, especially children.

[Redguard_Master]

only in morrowind, and that's only because of morrowind's treaty to join the empire. So since it's legal attacking morrowind they'd be the aggressors in a civil war, doubtlessly earning them an imperial legion beat down. But in oblivion they say slavery has been disbanded anyway.

[Teinaava]

The Alliance would be well aware of the shadowscales and would take whatever precaution needed to prevent or derail any attacks. Bretons and Redguards have espionage, too. It's called the Dark Brotherhood.

The Dark Brotherhood isn't an extension of the government. The only way they would go to Argonia to kill Argonians would be if the Alliance prayed to the Night Mother for them to kill go there and kill them. And even then you would have to pay a lot of money for them to do that. Also, the Dark Brotherhood is a group of assassins they don't do espionage. In order for a deal to take place a life must be taken, and while they could just take the life of any Argonian, I doubt they would agree.

[theArgonianguy]

The Alliance would be well aware of the shadowscales and would take whatever precaution needed to prevent or derail any attacks. Bretons and Redguards have espionage, too. It's called the Dark Brotherhood.

The Dark Brotherhood isn't an extension of the government. The only way they would go to Argonia to kill Argonians would be if the Alliance prayed to the Night Mother for them to kill go there and kill them. And even then you would have to pay a lot of money for them to do that. Also, the Dark Brotherhood is a group of assassins they don't do espionage. In order for a deal to take place a life must be taken, and while they could just take the life of any Argonian, I doubt they would agree.

infortunatly lol id have to say that shadowscale is ALMOST the same thing...they dont spy...and arent a branch of the BM goverment....althought hey might wish to defend their homeland...and if we go with what wolf said about the DB ...i think that some argonian will not tolerate an invasion of black marsh knowing many shadowscale also join the darck brotherhood (say, our commonly known one's, as Teineeve and Ocheeva..) and if they dont care about those upset argonian(we are talking about the DB leaders/killers) the darck brother(argonian's) would just try to kill the alliance leaders because they can reach Highrock/Hammerfell with more ease than any shadowscale....but i still stick to my former idea of akavirian succesful invasio

[Arzock]

Gah. that was painful to read.

[gregor]

@ Teinaava
on the note of transport through marshes - there are silth stridders that run on low watter as well as they are supposed to have some roots there for transport.

Argonians and Khajit are indeed pictured as weaker races. In morrowind the couldn't even wear shoes or closed helmets and a lot of them were thieves, slaves and other low life. there were a few exceptions as well.


Now as to take over i believe it would be the race that could get the most of other races to join them. Imperials tend to be "charming" people, which is probably why they managed to subdue or ally with others. i haven't played dagerfall, but so far only the dunmer seem to be really hating them. as for altmer they set themselves high above everyone else (arogant) so they would have a real problem finding allies.

Redguards and Nords are already prominent in the Imperial army. and i think they would support the imperials. same we could expect from Bosmer and Breton. Altmer would give the support to their Ocato. The only puzzle here are Khajit, Argonians and Dunmer. But Khajit and Argonians got development from the empire so it could be expected that they owuld support them or maybe even break away. Dunmer might just break away.

[Alilatias]

Also, some tribes of Argonians (namely the Archeins) would sell others into slavery, especially children.

And herein lies one of the flaws of your argument.

If the Argonians already have a conflict such as this amongst themselves, what makes you think that they'll truly unify fast enough in order to push back this 'seige'?

Something like this would greatly slow down the Argonians' efforts to orgainze and make their true attempt at defending their lands, especially if said alliance mentioned earlier launches a surprise attack.

You could say that the Bretons could not have been able to push back the Camoran Ursurper because of their fractured leadership, but they had years to prepare for this. Not in this case for the Argonians, especially if - like others have suggested earlier on - the alliance decides to attack the Black Marsh immediately almost without any warning at all.

The only possible advantage that the Argonians have in this fight is their familiarity with their land. Everything else is way up in the air considering the fact that there is not that much lore on the Argonians themselves in the first place.

[Teinaava]

Also, some tribes of Argonians (namely the Archeins) would sell others into slavery, especially children.

And herein lies one of the flaws of your argument.

If the Argonians already have a conflict such as this amongst themselves, what makes you think that they'll truly unify fast enough in order to push back this 'seige'?

Something like this would greatly slow down the Argonians' efforts to orgainze and make their true attempt at defending their lands, especially if said alliance mentioned earlier launches a surprise attack.

When I said that I was responding to a post reffering to why the Argonian military didn't do anything to stop them from being enslaved. This occurred during the game Morrowind. In the time that Oblivion takes place, slavery has been abolished. Also, the reason that they were being sold, was because of the cash crop plantations that other races were trying to create there. However, once the other races realized Argonia can't support a cash crop plantation they left, and the amount of slavery has since then decreased.

Within five months, the last book had been stolen from the deserted Maran monastery in Umphollo. As the Archeins went bankrupt, their slaves returned to his parents' tiny farms. The backwater Argonians found that they could grow enough to feed their families provided they had enough hard workers in their enclave, and the buyers market for slaves sharply declined.

Also, I doubt the alliance could launce a suprise attack, as they would have to march across Tamriel to get to Argonia, and that would surely be noticed.

[Wolf]

Teinaava, I never mentioned for even a second that the DB was part of either the Government or High Rock or Hammerfell, nor did I mention anything alluding to any possibility of hiring the DB for espionage. They would pray to the Night mother to have some of Argonia's higher-ups killed and anyone within the DB that objected would be killed for not following orders. As for the expense, that merely comes out of the war fund. I doubt the Shadowscales could match the DB in prowess, seeing as how the DB and, by association, the Morag Tong have exists for thousands of years. I can't think of anything else to say, I as I am still sick (and actually feeling a bit weak) but I will respond as I see fit.

[The Dog Whisperer]

Everything else is way up in the air considering the fact that there is not that much lore on the Argonians themselves in the first place.

There's plenty of lore on their home, a list of references to Black Marsh from the wiki. And if it's to do with Black Marsh, it's most likely got something about Argonians too.
But there are certainly murky parts...

NO COUNTRY CAN BE COMPLETELY AND WHOLLY SELF-SUFFICIENT

With a big enough army they can take what they need from other countries.

...and would take whatever precaution needed to prevent or derail any attacks...

Like Detect Life spells on scouts around the edge of the marching army...

It's called the Dark Brotherhood...

But they don't work for the Empire, do they? Maybe if something happened after it was disbanded, but I thought that the whole organisation was renegade?

If a voriplasm or Swamp Leviathan started coming your troops would probably see it and react to it. Which the Argonians would notice. Then while your troops are distracted, they could just slip away.

Who says it'll see 'our' troops first? 'Your' troops are the ones in the water...

Argonians can probably see better in water than the other races. They could also just remember the direction they entered they water from and just go back that way until they came to the shore.

That's a probably. We don't know, the only race I know to have good eyesight is Khajjiti... And they could 'remember the direction'? What if they made a (simple/easy) mistake? They could end up running into one of those Leviathans, or a dead end where they're trapped, waiting to be noticed by a passing army.

[Teinaava]

Teinaava, I never mentioned for even a second that the DB was part of either the Government or High Rock or Hammerfell, nor did I mention anything alluding to any possibility of hiring the DB for espionage.

You called alluded to them being espionage in this sentence:

Bretons and Redguards have espionage, too. It's called the Dark Brotherhood.

I doubt the Shadowscales could match the DB in prowess

The Shadowscales could match the DB in prowess as they are trained from birth to be assassins, while most DB members aren't. Also, once a Shadowscale comes of age, they join the DB.

[Wolf]

I bow to you, I made a mistake. I meant hired blade. But I would also like to point out that Just because they are trained from birth does not make them natural to that skill. The DB only accepts those that are natural, through process of literal elimination. For enough gold the Alliance could have Lechance himself sent out, were he not dead.